twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Joe Torre is baseball's Al Skinner. He's hands off, operates well with an experienced and mature club, and doesn't know a god damn thing about baseball strategy.
Ron Gardenhire is hands down the best baseball mind in the game.
EagleNYC {l Wrote}:twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Joe Torre is baseball's Al Skinner. He's hands off, operates well with an experienced and mature club, and doesn't know a god damn thing about baseball strategy.
Ron Gardenhire is hands down the best baseball mind in the game.
Agreed re: Torre since I was posing a current question. The game's passed him by. 1996 was a great managerial job by him. Everything else, not so much.
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Joe Torre is baseball's Al Skinner.
EagleNYC {l Wrote}:The game's passed him by.
commavegarage {l Wrote}:EagleNYC {l Wrote}:The game's passed him by.
He has made the NLCS the past two years.
Gardenhire has made the CS once, in 2002. He hasn't won a postseason game since 2004.
commavegarage {l Wrote}:twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Joe Torre is baseball's Al Skinner.
Joe Torre has won the world series 4 times. He has made it 6 times. He has made it to a championship series 10 times.
How many final fours has Al made? How many championships has he won?
Sweet comparison.
pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:EagleNYC {l Wrote}:The game's passed him by.
He has made the NLCS the past two years.
Gardenhire has made the CS once, in 2002. He hasn't won a postseason game since 2004.
Have you looked at the rosters, payrolls, and club management styles of the teams they manage?
commavegarage {l Wrote}:pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:EagleNYC {l Wrote}:The game's passed him by.
He has made the NLCS the past two years.
Gardenhire has made the CS once, in 2002. He hasn't won a postseason game since 2004.
Have you looked at the rosters, payrolls, and club management styles of the teams they manage?
Yes.
pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:EagleNYC {l Wrote}:The game's passed him by.
He has made the NLCS the past two years.
Gardenhire has made the CS once, in 2002. He hasn't won a postseason game since 2004.
Have you looked at the rosters, payrolls, and club management styles of the teams they manage?
Yes.
Yet you're basing everything on straight results. No differentiation on whether you're overachieving, underachieving or achieving exactly what's expected based on all those factors? Or the fact that Torre sleeps 32 hours a day?
pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:EagleNYC {l Wrote}:The game's passed him by.
He has made the NLCS the past two years.
Gardenhire has made the CS once, in 2002. He hasn't won a postseason game since 2004.
Have you looked at the rosters, payrolls, and club management styles of the teams they manage?
Yes.
Yet you're basing everything on straight results. No differentiation on whether you're overachieving, underachieving or achieving exactly what's expected based on all those factors? Or the fact that Torre sleeps 32 hours a day?
commavegarage {l Wrote}:pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:EagleNYC {l Wrote}:The game's passed him by.
He has made the NLCS the past two years.
Gardenhire has made the CS once, in 2002. He hasn't won a postseason game since 2004.
Have you looked at the rosters, payrolls, and club management styles of the teams they manage?
Yes.
Yet you're basing everything on straight results. No differentiation on whether you're overachieving, underachieving or achieving exactly what's expected based on all those factors? Or the fact that Torre sleeps 32 hours a day?
Gardenhire's Twins have overachieved. No doubt about it. But my thought process was: does his overachievement equal Torre's achieving exactly what he is supposed to? In my opinion, the answer is no.
EagleNYC {l Wrote}:CAG, Joe Torre is not the manger he was $75 million ago. He's shown an alarming inability to manage a bullpen, and despite some extremely talented teams, has not won a world series in a decade. As pointed out in my rubric, I simply don't think he has the ability to (effectively) manage anything but an extremely talented team of veterans. He wrote a fucking book throwing certain players under the bus.
NorthEndEagle {l Wrote}:cat hair pee fire
b0mberMan {l Wrote}:EagleNYC {l Wrote}:CAG, Joe Torre is not the manger he was $75 million ago. He's shown an alarming inability to manage a bullpen, and despite some extremely talented teams, has not won a world series in a decade. As pointed out in my rubric, I simply don't think he has the ability to (effectively) manage anything but an extremely talented team of veterans. He wrote a fucking book throwing certain players under the bus.
Ugh. Those last few years with NY, I felt horrible for any middle reliever who showed talent because you knew his arm would be shot at by mid-August from Torre abuse. I almost think that's why they were throwing big contracts at players (one or two inning guys) who are essentially interchangeable parts in baseball: it was an insurance policy should Torre decide he trusts you.
He looked like he could do no wrong in the late 90s when he had that paint-by-numbers bullpen of Stanton-Nelson-Rivera.
pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:EagleNYC {l Wrote}:The game's passed him by.
He has made the NLCS the past two years.
Gardenhire has made the CS once, in 2002. He hasn't won a postseason game since 2004.
Have you looked at the rosters, payrolls, and club management styles of the teams they manage?
Yes.
Yet you're basing everything on straight results. No differentiation on whether you're overachieving, underachieving or achieving exactly what's expected based on all those factors? Or the fact that Torre sleeps 32 hours a day?
Gardenhire's Twins have overachieved. No doubt about it. But my thought process was: does his overachievement equal Torre's achieving exactly what he is supposed to? In my opinion, the answer is no.
The I get your thought process. But the difference is that I'm weighing the expectations of the team based on roster, payroll, and upper management first, then seeing what the manager adds to that. I don't think he's adding much to the most talented teams in baseball. Gardenhire's adding a ton. You can't ignore results, but you definitely can't use them without some context.
commavegarage {l Wrote}:I may be in the minority, but I think Gardenhire's teams are (and have been) pretty damn talented.
commavegarage {l Wrote}:pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:pick6pedro {l Wrote}:commavegarage {l Wrote}:EagleNYC {l Wrote}:The game's passed him by.
He has made the NLCS the past two years.
Gardenhire has made the CS once, in 2002. He hasn't won a postseason game since 2004.
Have you looked at the rosters, payrolls, and club management styles of the teams they manage?
Yes.
Yet you're basing everything on straight results. No differentiation on whether you're overachieving, underachieving or achieving exactly what's expected based on all those factors? Or the fact that Torre sleeps 32 hours a day?
Gardenhire's Twins have overachieved. No doubt about it. But my thought process was: does his overachievement equal Torre's achieving exactly what he is supposed to? In my opinion, the answer is no.
The I get your thought process. But the difference is that I'm weighing the expectations of the team based on roster, payroll, and upper management first, then seeing what the manager adds to that. I don't think he's adding much to the most talented teams in baseball. Gardenhire's adding a ton. You can't ignore results, but you definitely can't use them without some context.
I may be in the minority, but I think Gardenhire's teams are (and have been) pretty damn talented.
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Francona reminds me of Doc Rivers. Don't rock the boat, keep the guys focused, and let the $140 million get the Ws. He's the perfect guy for a big payroll team. He's Joe Torre without the bullpen abuse.
campion {l Wrote}:Bobby Cox is the only manager on the field today who deserves to be mentioned in the same breath with Connie Mack or John McGraw. I would take Billy Southworth, Bill McKechnie, Joe McCarthy or Joe Cronin over most every one of these bums today with their laptops and law degrees.
Casey Stengel remains the most overrated manager in baseball history.
flyingelvii {l Wrote}:campion {l Wrote}:Bobby Cox is the only manager on the field today who deserves to be mentioned in the same breath with Connie Mack or John McGraw. I would take Billy Southworth, Bill McKechnie, Joe McCarthy or Joe Cronin over most every one of these bums today with their laptops and law degrees.
Casey Stengel remains the most overrated manager in baseball history.
So they're good because they're old and relied on certain adages that have proven to be flat out wrong over by the people with laptops and law degrees. Great.
EagleNYC {l Wrote}:flyingelvii {l Wrote}:campion {l Wrote}:Bobby Cox is the only manager on the field today who deserves to be mentioned in the same breath with Connie Mack or John McGraw. I would take Billy Southworth, Bill McKechnie, Joe McCarthy or Joe Cronin over most every one of these bums today with their laptops and law degrees.
Casey Stengel remains the most overrated manager in baseball history.
So they're good because they're old and relied on certain adages that have proven to be flat out wrong over by the people with laptops and law degrees. Great.
Managing a baseball team is not the same as making a mechanical drawing. The new data analysis is far more significant for general managers in evaluating a player than for in-game strategy. Are we going to re-hash the "don't bunt! EVER!!!" argument? Or the "this guy is awesome because he can walk with runners on 1st and 3rd and not drive in the run" argument? Steals? Putting on a hit and run? Hogwash!
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