can we talk sox here for a second?

[pick6pedro]

Looks like Teddy may get his wish. A bunch of reports hinting that Tito's leaving today, possibly to Chicago. Because anytime you can get rid of a two-time World Series manager, you just have to make the move.

Replacement candidates?

[claver2010]

Looks like Teddy may get his wish. A bunch of reports hinting that Tito's leaving today, possibly to Chicago. Because anytime you can get rid of a two-time World Series manager, you just have to make the move.

Replacement candidates?

Moneyball

[Endless Mike]

Terry Francona must read these boards.

[claver2010]

Something I didn't realize until now, 2 out of 3 season ending blown saves for Papeldouche

[eepstein0]

As far as the IP goes, if a guy throws 35 pitches in one inning, and another throws 12 pitches over 2 innings, did the guy with 2 IP get more or less work?

No shit. We don't have those numbers to my knowledge. So I move to the next best thing. And theoretically, if a guy is taking 20 pitches to get out of an inning he's not going to be a 7th, 8th or 9th guy. Gotta make some assumptions when working with incomplete data here big guy.

I don't have incomplete data. I watched almost every game through July. Bard throws a ton of pitches in his innings, and he gets up almost every game.

You do realize the other options in the bullpen are Matt Albers, Franklin Moracles and a bunch of other shitty pitchers. Francona had absolutely no one else to turn to in that bullpen.

[EagleNYC]

As far as the IP goes, if a guy throws 35 pitches in one inning, and another throws 12 pitches over 2 innings, did the guy with 2 IP get more or less work?

No shit. We don't have those numbers to my knowledge. So I move to the next best thing. And theoretically, if a guy is taking 20 pitches to get out of an inning he's not going to be a 7th, 8th or 9th guy. Gotta make some assumptions when working with incomplete data here big guy.

I don't have incomplete data. I watched almost every game through July. Bard throws a ton of pitches in his innings, and he gets up almost every game.

You do realize the other options in the bullpen are Matt Albers, Franklin Moracles and a bunch of other shitty pitchers. Francona had absolutely no one else to turn to in that bullpen.

I think his point still stands. While it's true that the pen was flamable outside of Papelbon, Bard and Aceves, if you ride Bard all year he's more likely to flame out. Torre did this consistently with Proctor, Tanyan Sturtze and others, and it was short sighted. You end up trading possible wins in May-July for likely losses thereafter, including the post season.

*Edit: I still think they should keep Tito because I don't think there is someone better for this team next year. It appears this will not happen, however.

[twballgame9]

Looks like Teddy may get his wish. A bunch of reports hinting that Tito's leaving today, possibly to Chicago. Because anytime you can get rid of a two-time World Series manager, you just have to make the move.

So you keep a manager because he won the world series in the past? Doesn't matter whether he is doing a good job? Or is your premise that winning the world series with the second highest payroll in baseball means that you are de facto a good manager?

[bignick33]

T, what replacement candidates do you favor?

[pick6pedro]

Whoever signed Renteria, Clement, Lackey, Drew, Lugo, Dice-K, Crawford, Gagne is definitely the guy who deserves to stay.

[twballgame9]

Whoever signed Renteria, Clement, Lackey, Drew, Lugo, Dice-K, Crawford, Gagne is definitely the guy who deserves to stay.

Very true. Overlooked in all of this is that Henry's cash covers up a ton of GM mistakes and the fact that despite unlimited resources, Theo can't assemble a mediocre bullpen.

[bignick33]

Whoever signed Renteria, Clement, Lackey, Drew, Lugo, Dice-K, Crawford, Gagne is definitely the guy who deserves to stay.

Very true. Overlooked in all of this is that Henry's cash covers up a ton of GM mistakes and the fact that despite unlimited resources, Theo can't assemble a mediocre bullpen.

And, it's not even for lack of trying, which makes the weakness even more glaring.

[twballgame9]

T, what replacement candidates do you favor?

My number one of reasonable candidates would be Farrell, but I would be surprised if they call him. I'd also make a call to Tony Pena, if the Yankees will let him talk.

B-list guys include DeMarlo Hale, Pete Mackanin. And I am not adverse to the Schilling rumors.

My #1 guy from the pipedream list would be Gardenhire.

Not a huge fan of Valentine, and if they hire Torre, I am rooting for the Orioles.

[twballgame9]

T, what replacement candidates do you favor?

My number one of reasonable candidates would be Farrell, but I would be surprised if they call him. I'd also make a call to Tony Pena, if the Yankees will let him talk.

B-list guys include DeMarlo Hale, Pete Mackanin. And I am not adverse to the Schilling rumors.

My #1 guy from the pipedream list would be Gardenhire.

Not a huge fan of Valentine, and if they hire Torre, I am rooting for the Orioles.

Also like Dave Martinez of the names I have heard.

[bignick33]

My number one of reasonable candidates would be Farrell, but I would be surprised if they call him. I'd also make a call to Tony Pena, if the Yankees will let him talk.

You nailed my top two hopefuls. I've always liked Pena.

B-list guys include DeMarlo Hale, Pete Mackanin.

Both are impressive, but neither has extensive Big League managing experience (I'm not counting the < 1/2 season that Mackanin interim-managed in Cinci). Both have extensive minor-league coaching experience, but it's not the same. That being said, Hale should get an interview at the very least, because he has been an effective and loyal member of the organization for years.

And I am not adverse to the Schilling rumors.

I am. He's sharp, but he's an egomanical prick. He's also a loud-mouth. Even though he fashions himself an old-school baseball guy, I have a hard time seeing him biting his tongue when it needs to be bit (something that Tito was exceptionally good during the Manny-era) both internally and externally.

My #1 guy from the pipedream list would be Gardenhire.

Sign me up. Worth putting in a call to Gardy.

Not a huge fan of Valentine, and if they hire Torre, I am rooting for the Orioles.

Valentine is hilarious in the same way that a clown is hilarious. Torre obviously isn't as bad as you say he is, but I doubt he would ever come, so it's a moot point.

Also like Dave Martinez of the names I have heard.

I'm obviously familiar with him as a long-time player, but I know very little of him as a coach. I can't imagine he has much experience.

[pick6pedro]

Whoever signed Renteria, Clement, Lackey, Drew, Lugo, Dice-K, Crawford, Gagne is definitely the guy who deserves to stay.

Very true. Overlooked in all of this is that Henry's cash covers up a ton of GM mistakes and the fact that despite unlimited resources, Theo can't assemble a mediocre bullpen.

And, it's not even for lack of trying, which makes the weakness even more glaring.

He shoulda stuck with the Costanza move and stayed resigned.

[bignick33]

Whoever signed Renteria, Clement, Lackey, Drew, Lugo, Dice-K, Crawford, Gagne is definitely the guy who deserves to stay.

Very true. Overlooked in all of this is that Henry's cash covers up a ton of GM mistakes and the fact that despite unlimited resources, Theo can't assemble a mediocre bullpen.

And, it's not even for lack of trying, which makes the weakness even more glaring.

He shoulda stuck with the Costanza move and stayed resigned.

He won another World Series after the slapfight with Lucky.

[twballgame9]

My number one of reasonable candidates would be Farrell, but I would be surprised if they call him. I'd also make a call to Tony Pena, if the Yankees will let him talk.

You nailed my top two hopefuls. I've always liked Pena.

B-list guys include DeMarlo Hale, Pete Mackanin.

Both are impressive, but neither has extensive Big League managing experience (I'm not counting the < 1/2 season that Mackanin interim-managed in Cinci). Both have extensive minor-league coaching experience, but it's not the same. That being said, Hale should get an interview at the very least, because he has been an effective and loyal member of the organization for years.

And I am not adverse to the Schilling rumors.

I am. He's sharp, but he's an egomanical prick. He's also a loud-mouth. Even though he fashions himself an old-school baseball guy, I have a hard time seeing him biting his tongue when it needs to be bit (something that Tito was exceptionally good during the Manny-era) both internally and externally.

My #1 guy from the pipedream list would be Gardenhire.

Sign me up. Worth putting in a call to Gardy.

Not a huge fan of Valentine, and if they hire Torre, I am rooting for the Orioles.

Valentine is hilarious in the same way that a clown is hilarious. Torre obviously isn't as bad as you say he is, but I doubt he would ever come, so it's a moot point.

Also like Dave Martinez of the names I have heard.

I'm obviously familiar with him as a long-time player, but I know very little of him as a coach. I can't imagine he has much experience.

I hear you on Schilling, but I think he would tone it down with the players. I don't think he is a candidate, but if he were named manager I would worry more about him being buddies with the guys he played with.

Martinez falls in the same category with Hale. He's been a bench coach in Tampa for a while now.

[bignick33]

I hear you on Schilling, but I think he would tone it down with the players. I don't think he is a candidate, but if he were named manager I would worry more about him being buddies with the guys he played with.

Martinez falls in the same category with Hale. He's been a bench coach in Tampa for a while now.

Re Schilling, you couldn't possibly have Wakefield in mind, could you? That would be a disaster. Speaking of which, I wonder if him and/or Varitek will be back. I'll put it at 25% for Wake and 50% for the Cap'n.

The difference between Hale and Martinez is that I believe Hale had extensive minor league managing experience before he was hired as 3B coach with the Sox.

[twballgame9]

I hear you on Schilling, but I think he would tone it down with the players. I don't think he is a candidate, but if he were named manager I would worry more about him being buddies with the guys he played with.

Martinez falls in the same category with Hale. He's been a bench coach in Tampa for a while now.

Re Schilling, you couldn't possibly have Wakefield in mind, could you? That would be a disaster. Speaking of which, I wonder if him and/or Varitek will be back. I'll put it at 25% for Wake and 50% for the Cap'n.

The difference between Hale and Martinez is that I believe Hale had extensive minor league managing experience before he was hired as 3B coach with the Sox.

I wasn't considering Wake as a manager, and no, I was talking about Schilling's professed man love for "Petey" and "Josh" and "Youk" and "Papi".

I don't see Wake coming back. They shouldn't bring back Varitek, the giant fork in his back slows down his bat.

The other difference between Martinez and Hale is that there is no chance that they don't completely clean house.

[bignick33]

I hear you on Schilling, but I think he would tone it down with the players. I don't think he is a candidate, but if he were named manager I would worry more about him being buddies with the guys he played with.

Martinez falls in the same category with Hale. He's been a bench coach in Tampa for a while now.

Re Schilling, you couldn't possibly have Wakefield in mind, could you? That would be a disaster. Speaking of which, I wonder if him and/or Varitek will be back. I'll put it at 25% for Wake and 50% for the Cap'n.

The difference between Hale and Martinez is that I believe Hale had extensive minor league managing experience before he was hired as 3B coach with the Sox.

I wasn't considering Wake as a manager, and no, I was talking about Schilling's professed man love for "Petey" and "Josh" and "Youk" and "Papi".

I don't see Wake coming back. They shouldn't bring back Varitek, the giant fork in his back slows down his bat.

The other difference between Martinez and Hale is that there is no chance that they don't completely clean house.

It's over for Wake, or at least it should be. The thing about Tek is that, while he is broken down physically, he is still not worse than your average MLB backup catcher. In fact, he's probably a bit better. Unless you project Lavarnaway as a Big League catching prospect, Tek probably should be back (particularly if you buy into the whole intangibles with the pitching staff and leadership stuff).

[twballgame9]

Tek is an automatic out against anyone with a fastball over 88. He needs to start that slow ass swing before he gets to the batter's box.

[bignick33]

Tito is officially out. What do you guys make of the fact that ownership (and not Theo) are the voice behind the dismissal? Sorry that this the mobile link.

http://mobile.boston.com/art/35/sports/ ... fficial_fr

[flyingelvii]

Looks like Teddy may get his wish. A bunch of reports hinting that Tito's leaving today, possibly to Chicago. Because anytime you can get rid of a two-time World Series manager, you just have to make the move.

So you keep a manager because he won the world series in the past? Doesn't matter whether he is doing a good job? Or is your premise that winning the world series with the second highest payroll in baseball means that you are de facto a good manager?

Well he did more than any other Red Sox manager with a similar payroll. And he has done a good job over the last 8 years. As evidenced by two World Series. I also find it funny that nobody was bitching about him being a bad manager at the beginning of September.

[twballgame9]

Looks like Teddy may get his wish. A bunch of reports hinting that Tito's leaving today, possibly to Chicago. Because anytime you can get rid of a two-time World Series manager, you just have to make the move.

So you keep a manager because he won the world series in the past? Doesn't matter whether he is doing a good job? Or is your premise that winning the world series with the second highest payroll in baseball means that you are de facto a good manager?

Well he did more than any other Red Sox manager with a similar payroll. And he has done a good job over the last 8 years. As evidenced by two World Series. I also find it funny that nobody was bitching about him being a bad manager at the beginning of September.

I've been bitching about his managing for 8 years.

And no Red Sox manager ever had a payroll like that, except for Grady Little for one season. The Red Sox did not start the arms race with the Yankees until Henry bought the team. Prior to that, the Sox spent about half as much money - Pedro Martinez and a boat load of bargains. Even Garciaparra never had a big contract, and Mo Vaughn left because the Sox wouldn't pay him.

And think about how close Grady Little was to being unfireable by your standard.

[flyingelvii]

Yeah, Manny played for pennies. Same for Jose Offerman. Who could forget David Cone's great year? How about Carl Everett? Mike Lansing and Dante Bichette were clearly gotten on the cheap. They paid for big money players, they just sucked.

And that's a cute strawman with Grady. Keep going down that slippery slope. No logic flaw in that one.

[twballgame9]

The Red Sox payroll in 1999 was $70 million, 6th behind NYY, Cleveland, Baltimore, Texas and Atlanta and barely more than the Mets, Dodgers and Arizona. That was an increase from 1998, when it was $59 million, when they were 6th. In 2000, they were 7th.

In 2001, they were second, but were still in close range with the Dodgers, Mets, Cleveland, Atlanta and Texas.

Henry buys the team in January 2002. Last year of Grady Little, 2003, the Red Sox payroll ranks 6th, behind the Rangers, Dodgers, Mets, Yankees and Texas. This lasts one year of Henry's reign, and as Francona takes over in 2004, the Sox payroll jumps to second at $125 million, or $25 million more than third. In 2005 and 2006, they are $20 million more than third, and in 2007, they jump to $145 million, $30 million more than third, and narrowing the gap with the Yankees by $30 million.

It is not until 2008 and 2009 that Cubs, Mets and Tigers catch up, and the Red Sox cut payroll to 4th. By 2010, they are back to $160, $15 million more than 3rd. This year, the Phillies passed them, but they remained $20 million ahead of 4th.

Fact is that the Red Sox were traditionally in a group of teams from 5-8 in payroll in the 1990s through 2003 and a great many teams were in basically the same range. From 2004 to 2007, the Red Sox were well out in front of everyone but the Yankees, and they won 2 world series titles.

[Shredder]

I hear you on Schilling, but I think he would tone it down with the players. I don't think he is a candidate, but if he were named manager I would worry more about him being buddies with the guys he played with.

Martinez falls in the same category with Hale. He's been a bench coach in Tampa for a while now.

Re Schilling, you couldn't possibly have Wakefield in mind, could you? That would be a disaster. Speaking of which, I wonder if him and/or Varitek will be back. I'll put it at 25% for Wake and 50% for the Cap'n.

The difference between Hale and Martinez is that I believe Hale had extensive minor league managing experience before he was hired as 3B coach with the Sox.

I put Wake at 0% and Tek at 25% but if I were GM, I wouldn't bring him back. You can't rely on old, oft-injured players. I'd also shop Youk and Lowrie and look for a solid, durable third baseman. Ortiz will probably come back as there isn't as much of a market for him as he thinks but it'd likely be for a year because they're probably going to want flexibility at DH in the coming years. With Papelbon, you'd think he'd be back because teams should have learned from others' mistakes that big contracts for closers not named Mariano are bad news but there are dumb signings every year.

[twballgame9]

And that's a cute strawman with Grady. Keep going down that slippery slope. No logic flaw in that one.

Try this one on for size - is Ozzie Guillen a good manager?

[flyingelvii]

No. He's also only made the playoffs twice despite having one of the highest payrolls and playing in a significantly weaker division than the AL East. Keep 'em coming.

[flyingelvii]

Because he's an aliass of Rico Petrocelli.