NCAA vs. Major Junior

[claver2010]

While BC doesn't recruit much in Canada, here's an interesting article from the NYT about the battle.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/10/sports/hockey/10hockey.html?_r=1&ref=hockey

[bignick33]

It's definitely a problem that the OHL and other Juniors leagues can get to these kids before the colleges can. The NCAA rules on recruiting that serve a purpose for most sports actually hurt the college hockey programs when they are competing with the Juniors leagues. When a kid goes north, the trajectory of his career is essentially decided by age 19. By going to college, there is a lot more time to develop. In most cases, it's in the kids' best interest to go the college route, because it keeps their options open.

I think the key is getting to these kids when they're young, and simply stressing the value delaying any potentially career-deciding decisions. That being said, I don't believe that relaxing the NCAA rules on recruiting for college hockey programs, as some people have suggested, would solve the problem; it would simply create a free-for-all that would ultimately exacerbate the problem. I know that College Hockey Inc and the USHL (who, as a juniors league, has no restrictions about contacting young prospects) have partnered to try to educate kids on their options at a very young age. The cool thing about the USHL is that it's strictly amateur, which is what allows a kid like Matheson to play a year in Dubuque then go to BC to develop further before making the professional jump.

[bcsoxfan12]

Awesome explanation Nick!!!!!!!!!!!!! I favor anything that develops homegrown talent , however look what the Canadian influence has accomplished in smaller programs such as Merrimack

[bignick33]

It's also interesting that Matheson likely turned down big $$ from to keep his college eligibility in tact.

[flyingelvii]

I think the big difference between the Canadien junior leagues (OHL, the Q, and WHL) and the USHL and, to a lesser extent, NAHL, is that the Canadien leagues focus more on the hockey aspect, which makes sense given the fact that they're paying the kids. The closest thing that comes to this in the US is probably the USNDT where the kids are essentially half-students, half-hockey players. While the USHL is still very serious and everything, it's still somewhat a step down from the Canadien leagues. I think that's where most of the appeal is. If you're somebody who is on the fringe of getting drafted, it's seems more likely that the Canadien leagues would be a better option just because of the sheer exposure.

Of course, if you crash and burn, you're pretty much done when you reach the age limit. In the US you can at least play at DII, DIII, or club.

[bignick33]

Of course, if you crash and burn, you're pretty much done when you reach the age limit. In the US you can at least play at DII, DIII, or club.

And, you can in many cases still get a free or discounted education.

[shockdoct]

You can easily negotiate an education package for a canadian university from a major junior team.

[bignick33]

You can easily negotiate an education package for a canadian university from a major junior team.

The very top players can, sure, but that's not really who I was talking about.

[shockdoct]

You can easily negotiate an education package for a canadian university from a major junior team.

The very top players can, sure, but that's not really who I was talking about.

Even a mid level guy can get something. They may not give you a full ride, but they will give you something (not to mention the Canadian universities are cheaper).

[Salzano14]

CHL teams are considered professional by the NCAA; thus any player who plays a game at the Major Junior level loses his eligibility to play for American universities. He retains eligibility for Canadian universities however, and all three leagues have programs in place to grant scholarships for any player who plays in these leagues provided he does not turn professional once his junior career ends.

(From Wiki)

If you play major juniors, you go to school in Canada for free. Learned this when I went to New Brunswick for BC's exhibitions a few years back.

[flyingelvii]

Of course, if you crash and burn, you're pretty much done when you reach the age limit. In the US you can at least play at DII, DIII, or club.

And, you can in many cases still get a free or discounted education.

I think one of the problems as well is that a ton of players play Junior B out in the middle of nowhere for hopes of moving up to Junior A. The Junior B teams generally care even less about the players and are basically just trying to get some cheap money by getting kids who don't want to give up the dream to play for them. I was a decent player in high school and played in a showcase tourney but never had any intention of actually playing juniors or anything after school. Regardless I still got calls from people in the most random locations. I'm guessing they got my information, and a whole host of other kids' information, from a database because there's no way in hell that many small time coaches were able to go out to Chicago to watch some high schoolers play hockey. The NAHL has turned into this to some extent as well, with the sheer number of teams that are in the league now. USHL is still pretty legit, however.

[bignick33]

You can easily negotiate an education package for a canadian university from a major junior team.

The very top players can, sure, but that's not really who I was talking about.

Even a mid level guy can get something. They may not give you a full ride, but they will give you something (not to mention the Canadian universities are cheaper).

CHL teams are considered professional by the NCAA; thus any player who plays a game at the Major Junior level loses his eligibility to play for American universities. He retains eligibility for Canadian universities however, and all three leagues have programs in place to grant scholarships for any player who plays in these leagues provided he does not turn professional once his junior career ends.

(From Wiki)

If you play major juniors, you go to school in Canada for free. Learned this when I went to New Brunswick for BC's exhibitions a few years back.

I didn't realize that it was institutionalized the way it is. This is good info. I was always under the impression that it was kind of like minor league baseball in the US (the tops players might get some reimbursement for future education included in their contract, but that's about it).

That being said, this still doesn't really impact US players that much, which is what the article discusses. Regardless of the educational opportunities at Canadian universities down the line, the fact remains that kids are having tremendous pressure put on them to make a huge career decision by about age sixteen. This is very concerning to me, and due to the self-imposed rules of the NCAA, the college hockey teams can't really compete. I don't want this to come across as bitching for the rigged playing feel for the college hockey programs, as they still will get a ton of Canadian kids coming south; rather, what I worry about is the fourteen year old kid in Michigan or Maine who has the Canadian Junior teams banging on his door at age 14 with big $$ offers. The kid is forced to make a really big decision before he can really develop as a hockey player, and it becomes very difficult to make an informed decision about what he wants to do with his hockey career and/or his education.

Also, I echo what flyingelvii says about the USHL. For a lot of kids, it's the best of both worlds.

[Salzano14]

I don't want this to come across as bitching for the rigged playing feel for the college hockey programs, as they still will get a ton of Canadian kids coming south; rather, what I worry about is the fourteen year old kid in Michigan or Maine who has the Canadian Junior teams banging on his door at age 14 with big $$ offers. The kid is forced to make a really big decision before he can really develop as a hockey player, and it becomes very difficult to make an informed decision about what he wants to do with his hockey career and/or his education..

You're not bitching. Major Juniors' issues relative to the NCAA is a common topic on USCHO.

[bignick33]

Here's a recent article about Juniors vs. US colleges:

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2 ... -whl-qmjhl

[bignick33]

http://www.uscho.com/2012/04/10/ncaa-ha ... 12-season/

[SiValEagle]

http://www.uscho.com/2012/04/10/ncaa-has-hefty-representation-in-nhl-during-11-12-season/

Wow. There are 21 former BC players in the NHL right now? That's more than I thought.

Can anyone name them all without looking it up?

[flyingelvii]

I got 17

1. Gionta
2. Clemmenson
3. Gerbe
4. Atkinson
5. Hayes
6. Mottau
7. Scuderi
8. Shannon
9. Alberts
10. Schneider
11. Boyle
12. Ben Smith
13. Ferriero
14. Kobasew
15. P. Eaves
16. Allen
17. Orpik
18.
19.
20.
21.

[claver2010]

I got 17

1. Gionta
2. Clemmenson
3. Gerbe
4. Atkinson
5. Hayes
6. Mottau
7. Scuderi
8. Shannon
9. Alberts
10. Schneider
11. Boyle
12. Ben Smith
13. Ferriero
14. Kobasew
15. P. Eaves
16. Allen
17. Orpik
18. Stephen Gionta -scored Saturday
19.
20.
21.

[twballgame9]

I got 17

1. Gionta
2. Clemmenson
3. Gerbe
4. Atkinson
5. Hayes
6. Mottau
7. Scuderi
8. Shannon
9. Alberts
10. Schneider
11. Boyle
12. Ben Smith
13. Ferriero
14. Kobasew
15. P. Eaves
16. Allen
17. Orpik
18.
19.
20.
21.

Kolanos is still in the NHL, no? At least for a few games a year?

[flyingelvii]

Looks like he ripped the list from Wikipedia, which includes Ben Lovejoy and Ryan Murphy, who retired two years ago. Looks like the other two were Reasoner and Peter Harrold.

[flyingelvii]

I got 17

1. Gionta
2. Clemmenson
3. Gerbe
4. Atkinson
5. Hayes
6. Mottau
7. Scuderi
8. Shannon
9. Alberts
10. Schneider
11. Boyle
12. Ben Smith
13. Ferriero
14. Kobasew
15. P. Eaves
16. Allen
17. Orpik
18.
19.
20.
21.

Kolanos is still in the NHL, no? At least for a few games a year?

Played for Calgary this year, something like 10 games.

[bignick33]

This is an interesting piece about the future of a BC commit:

http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/art ... orts_links

Edit: Claver beat me to it in another thread.

[claver2010]

This has been out there for a while but CHL team suing Michigan student newspaper for claiming they offered an improper bonus for kid to break commitment:

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2012/7/16/3156832/ncaa-hockey-chl-canadian-juniors-lawsuit-kitchener-rangers

Kitchener Rangers Lawsuit Adds Ugliness to CHL vs. NCAA Flap

PITTSBURGH, PA - JUNE 22:


By Bruce Ciskie - NHL Contributor

The Kitchener Rangers are suing the student newspaper at the University of Michigan, just another chapter in the growing flap between NCAA hockey and the three Canadian major junior leagues.


Jul 16, 2012 - A few years ago, commissioners of college hockey's Division I conferences -- the leaders behind Atlantic Hockey, the Central Collegiate Hockey Association, the ECAC, Hockey East, and the Western Collegiate Hockey Association -- came together and helped formed an organization called College Hockey, Inc.

The mission of the entity was to promote college hockey to high school-age players, providing them information on their options for hockey as they got older, and showing the benefits of choosing college hockey over the Canadian major junior leagues.

Part of that effort comes with talking about the success guys like Zach Parise, Jonathan Toews, Justin Faulk, and many others have had professionally after playing in college.

Since CHI formed, the "war" between NCAA programs and the Canadian Hockey League -- the arm overseeing three Canadian leagues, the OHL, WHL, and QMJHL -- seems to have only intensified. What was once a one-way battle is no longer, because CHI is making sure the CHL isn't the only one feeding information to kids about its benefits.

(This seems like a good time for me to mention that kids who play in a Canadian major junior league are ineligible to play NCAA college hockey. The NCAA sees the CHL as a professional league.)

Along the way, there have been allegations and rumors for years of CHL teams offering or paying improper benefits to kids to pull them away from college commitments. Famously, Notre Dame coach Jeff Jackson threw out the idea that Windsor (OHL) defenseman Cam Fowler was offered a huge sum by Kitchener before going to play juniors -- the figure thrown around was $500,000 -- and was threatened with a lawsuit from Windsor and Kitchener. That lawsuit never happened.

In my years closely following and covering college hockey, I've heard plenty of rumors, but no one has any desire to go on the record with any of it. If you follow college hockey, you've probably been made aware of at least some of those rumors.

(CHL teams give under-20 players a stipend of $50 per week. Overage players can get up to $150 a week. Anything beyond that is considered against the rules.)

Recently, reporter Matt Slovin of Michigan Daily ran a story where he cited an unnamed source claiming the Kitchener Rangers offered defenseman Jacob Trouba $200,000 to split on his commitment to play at Michigan and join the OHL club.

Slovin's story was met with quick denials from the Rangers and Trouba's family, which has no reason to drag itself into what is largely a political minefield.

This time, the Rangers followed through on threats, suing the Daily and the unnamed source Slovin quoted. They are asking for $1 million in damages. The suit was filed in Canada, but from what I've read, it seems the Rangers have to convince an American court of their case to actually collect any damages.

Good luck with that.

The newspaper is standing behind its reporter and his story.

Trouba is signed to play at Michigan, but a National Letter of Intent means nothing to a CHL team. They will often recruit players while they are playing for a college team. They don't care about that piece of paper. Trouba, meanwhile, has said all along he will become a Wolverine this fall. The first-round pick of the Winnipeg Jets will spend up to two seasons at Michigan before turning pro.

It's an ugly part of college hockey. North Dakota has lost multiple recruits to summer CHL signings, and Michigan lost two goalie recruits -- Jack Campbell and John Gibson -- in a short span of time.

But not everyone takes the bait and moves up north. Parise, Toews, Faulk, Ryan Suter, and countless others have gone on to NHL stardom after playing college hockey.

As long as both paths -- college and major junior -- are viable and produce NHL-level talent, top players will have a tough decision to make during their teenage years. Neither path is "the answer" for everyone. Many American players -- especially those around a big-time hockey school or in a state known for hockey -- feel a bit of a pull to a certain college team from childhood on, and they aren't willing to give up that dream to play hockey in a strange city in a foreign country.

CHI isn't going away, and the CHL programs aren't going to stop pursuing players they think can help them compete for the Memorial Cup.

Hopefully, though, the "feud" can simmer a bit as we move forward. Yes, there is money to be made, and reputations to uphold, but it's hockey. I hate to pull the "Can't we all just get along?" line, but the sides need to start getting along, even if only a little bit.

Threats and lawsuits and trash talk only distracts from the on-ice product. For both entities, the on-ice product should be what matters, not sniping at each other in the media.

[claver2010]

Interesting article if there are any lawyers around here surrounding kids when trying out signing a waiver saying they'll accept a contract if offered after an ohl tryout and possibly jeopardizing their eligibility

http://www.thehockeyadvocate.com/?p=1005

OHL Tryout Agreement: NCAA Ramifications?
Posted on April 23, 2013 by JNadeau
OHL Tryout Agreement: NCAA Ramifications?

Well it seems that the OHL has decided to send out a Tryout Agreement to Players planning to attend Rookie Camps for the 2013-14 Season. This doesn’t sound ominous, but upon first glance, it appears to commit Player’s to agreeing to an OHL contract if offered by the team. Clearly, there is a need to figure out what’s going on?!?
Here is the question from a concerned Hockey Advocate Reader and my article in reply:

___________________________________

Hello Jason,

My son and I have been reading your articles for over a year now…very helpful…thank you! My son is playing Major Midget. He just received an offer to attend an OHL tryout. They are asking him to sign an OHL Tryout Agreement and said it does not jeopardize his college eligibility. After reading your article “NCAA Eligibility- CHL Tryouts – Do’s and Don’ts”, I have my doubts.

Based on your article and the wording in the agreement, it sounds like we should not sign this…will that mean he cannot attend the tryout? Any input around this would be appreciated! Here is the pre-amble he received:

“2). OHL Tryout Notice – ohl-tryout-agreement.pdf

This tryout form is ONLY for the Rookie Camp and is required by our league. For those players attending multiple camps, you may write the dates of our rookie camp on the top of this form. We will sign you to a subsequent tryout form is you are invited to training camp in late August.”

Hockey Advocates Reply:

Wow, this is the first I’ve seen of this type of agreement. Very sneaky.

FYI, after I read through things, I called College Hockey Inc and they had just received the same agreement today and were submitting it to the NCAA for a ruling. So I should have ‘concrete’ OFFICIAL advice for you within the next couple of days, if not by tomorrow. Or it could take months, with the NCAA, you never know. Once I have that response, I will add a follow-up article. Here is my advice, at first glance.

I assumed up front that it was more of a waiver for insurance purposes then anything else. But after throwing the full weight of my Mom’s college funded legal education at it, it doesn’t even do that much. In fact, there is no mention of insurance or liability at all, I assume he will have to sign that form upon arrival.

So what does it actually say? It’s basically one paragraph or one long run-on sentence. The rest is blanks for player information, League info and signatures. What matters is this paragraph.

“The Player agrees to present himself, when called upon to do so on terms to be mutually agreed upon, at the Club’s training camp for the purpose of demonstrating, to the best of his ability, his qualifications as a hockey player; and further agrees that if such qualifications, in the opinion of the Club, justify the Club in offering him a Hockey Canada Player Registration Certificate and OHL Standard Player’s Agreement to play on their OHL Hockey Club, he will sign such documents on terms to be mutually agreed upon which are in accordance with the rules, regulations and policies of the League.”

Part 1: Tryout Attendance

“The Player agrees to present himself, when called upon to do so on terms to be mutually agreed upon, at the Club’s training camp for the purpose of demonstrating, to the best of his ability, his qualifications as a hockey player;”

This clause basically says he promises that he ‘will show up and play his butt off as hard as possibly.’ So far, there are no professional commitments that would jeopardize his ‘NCAA Amateur Status’ that I can see. The ‘best of abilities’ clause is standard in 99% of performance contracts, nothing untoward here – so far!

Part 2: Shooting your self in the NCAA Foot just to go to Rookie Camp?

This is the section that could be a problem.

“and further agrees that if such qualifications … justify the Club in offering him a Hockey Canada Player Registration Certificate and OHL Standard Player’s Agreement he will sign such documents on terms to be mutually agreed upon..”

‘Such documents’ being an OHL Contract. The way it reads is IF the team likes him, he has agreed in advance, to sign an OHL Contract – IF they so decide to offer him a spot on their List/Roster.

It is qualified only by saying that “such documents on terms to be mutually agreed upon which are in accordance with the rules.”

On its surface, Players are essentially agreeing to sign a professional contract, if it is presented to them.

However, I think that this is an oversimplification and that in real world legal interpretation, there is wiggle room in this document. It is in this area of ‘mutually agreed upon terms.’ My legal interpretation would be that the player at this stage will SIGN his contract IF he can negotiate mutually agreed upon terms with the club. So, he is not actually signing a professional contract, only agreeing to consider the terms and THEN make a decision.

So I’m pretty confident that this ‘contingency’ clause will be the focal point of any future NCAA ruling. Their ruling should be that the player has NOT yet signed a professional agreement until those ‘terms’ are actually agreed upon.

Overall, I think there is no reason for them to have this form, other then to muddy the waters with the NCAA and to ‘confuse’ players/parents as to their obligations and rights. It’s bad enough that Players are routinely badgered into ‘promising’ to sign with a team IF they choose to draft them in advance. Now, they want a ‘legal’ guarantee.

I’d call it Bush League tactics, but this is a sophisticated play.

Essentially, they are confusing Parents & Players so that they make uninformed decisions. The overwhelming majority of whom will not have an Agent or Family Advisor assistance to help them understand all of the ramifications of their attending a Rookie Camp with regards to their NCAA rights.

But in the end, this is about business and selling tickets. Once you sign the OHL contract, you shoot yourself in the proverbial ‘NCAA-Foot’ and they own your rights. If this agreement becomes a fixture, the WHL and QMJHL will most assuredly follow-suit with their own version of this ‘agreement’ in the near future, so this will become a national issue in short-order.

Advocate’s Verdict

Overall, I haven’t been very flattering about this attempt by the OHL to ‘curtail’ player’s rights. I think this ‘agreement’ is wrong for many reasons. First and foremost, this isn’t a ‘CHL is Bad, NCAA is Good’ assessment; I promote player’s rights and believe in being an Advocate for those who need assistance. That said, my professional opinion is that the OHL is a great hockey league that develops world class talent and I’ve had many clients graduate from their established proving grounds over the years (Recently: Matt Sisca Guelph Storm – ECHL All-Rookie Team 2012). I just think that in this instance, Players’ rights are once again being jeopardized unreasonably.

In conclusion, I would say that signing should NOT ruin your college eligibility but until the NCAA gives their ruling, hold off on signing.

So, if you choose to sign in the OHL or CHL, make that decision when it is right for you. Until then, protect your rights and keep your options open.

I hope that helps and thanks to one of my Advocate Readers for bringing this issue to my attention.

Jason