Clemson Game

[eepstein0]

The combination of crappy defense and some bad shooting killed us. I'll tell you what, Maryland is a must-win. Lose to Maryand (and I'll chalk up losses at UNC and at VT), 8-8 in the ACC is going to require winning the ACCT.

Maryland is indeed a 100% must-win. It's not so much a "make-or-break" game as it's just a potential "break" game.

And, btw, BC covered. I hope you spend the easy money you made wisely.

I've said all along that all we need to do is split this week, but know it's back-to-the-wall time. I thought we played pretty well for 30 minutes or so, but we played so bad for those other 10 minutes (i.e. beginning of the second half) that we lost the game.

We still have Miami, MD, Wake and @ UVA to get to 9 wins and then win 1 in the ACCT. @ VT is extremely unlikely. I'll call @ UNC impossible.

Basically, we have to win every game one of the four you mention. This is not an easy task, as there is no margin for error, but it's not out of the question. Obviously, it starts with a bounce-back performance this weekend. I don't think any BC fan in their right mind expected a win @ Clemson, so it's not as if we're losing games we should have won. If anything, this team has overachieved a bit.

Wake, Miami and UVA (without their 2 best players) are 3 of the bottom 4 teams in the ACC. Maryland is a bit of an unknown.

[bobcarrington]

The combination of crappy defense and some bad shooting killed us. I'll tell you what, Maryland is a must-win. Lose to Maryand (and I'll chalk up losses at UNC and at VT), 8-8 in the ACC is going to require winning the ACCT.

Maryland is indeed a 100% must-win. It's not so much a "make-or-break" game as it's just a potential "break" game.

And, btw, BC covered. I hope you spend the easy money you made wisely.

I've said all along that all we need to do is split this week, but know it's back-to-the-wall time. I thought we played pretty well for 30 minutes or so, but we played so bad for those other 10 minutes (i.e. beginning of the second half) that we lost the game.

We still have Miami, MD, Wake and @ UVA to get to 9 wins and then win 1 in the ACCT. @ VT is extremely unlikely. I'll call @ UNC impossible.

Basically, we have to win every game one of the four you mention. This is not an easy task, as there is no margin for error, but it's not out of the question. Obviously, it starts with a bounce-back performance this weekend. I don't think any BC fan in their right mind expected a win @ Clemson, so it's not as if we're losing games we should have won. If anything, this team has overachieved a bit.

Wake, Miami and UVA (without their 2 best players) are 3 of the bottom 4 teams in the ACC. Maryland is a bit of an unknown.

I know Mike Scott is out for UVA (and he was clearly one of their best players). Who is the other guy that is out and that you consider one of their two best?

[eepstein0]

The combination of crappy defense and some bad shooting killed us. I'll tell you what, Maryland is a must-win. Lose to Maryand (and I'll chalk up losses at UNC and at VT), 8-8 in the ACC is going to require winning the ACCT.

Maryland is indeed a 100% must-win. It's not so much a "make-or-break" game as it's just a potential "break" game.

And, btw, BC covered. I hope you spend the easy money you made wisely.

I've said all along that all we need to do is split this week, but know it's back-to-the-wall time. I thought we played pretty well for 30 minutes or so, but we played so bad for those other 10 minutes (i.e. beginning of the second half) that we lost the game.

We still have Miami, MD, Wake and @ UVA to get to 9 wins and then win 1 in the ACCT. @ VT is extremely unlikely. I'll call @ UNC impossible.

Basically, we have to win every game one of the four you mention. This is not an easy task, as there is no margin for error, but it's not out of the question. Obviously, it starts with a bounce-back performance this weekend. I don't think any BC fan in their right mind expected a win @ Clemson, so it's not as if we're losing games we should have won. If anything, this team has overachieved a bit.

Wake, Miami and UVA (without their 2 best players) are 3 of the bottom 4 teams in the ACC. Maryland is a bit of an unknown.

I know Mike Scott is out for UVA (and he was clearly one of their best players). Who is the other guy that is out and that you consider one of their two best?

Last year's best player Landesberg.

[2001Eagle]

A few thoughts about the game:

1) Coach D was coaching his ass off last night. Exhorting the team to play good defense, get in good defensive positions, subbing for offense defense etc. Really refreshing to see. I think the focus on defense has resulted in an improvement since the UNC game. Clemson did a nice job making their FT's and extending possessions after BC cut the lead. The breakdown after the halftime break was unfortunate but this is a work in progress. My only real criticism is that I wish BC had made an adjustment to dribble drive from the perimeter when it was clear that Clemson was closing out hard on every possession to take away the 3 ball.

2) Glad to see Reggie get his mojo back. It was the best thing about this loss. If BC has any chance of making noise down the stretch, he'll need to play at that level.

3) BC cannot consistently win games unless a third option offensively steps up. What the hell has happened to Biko Paris? If he played at 3/4 of the level he played early on BC could have won last night.


4)

[cvilleagle]

A few thoughts about the game:

1) Coach D was coaching his ass off last night. Exhorting the team to play good defense, get in good defensive positions, subbing for offense defense etc. Really refreshing to see. I think the focus on defense has resulted in an improvement since the UNC game. Clemson did a nice job making their FT's and extending possessions after BC cut the lead. The breakdown after the halftime break was unfortunate but this is a work in progress. My only real criticism is that I wish BC had made an adjustment to dribble drive from the perimeter when it was clear that Clemson was closing out hard on every possession to take away the 3 ball.

2) Glad to see Reggie get his mojo back. It was the best thing about this loss. If BC has any chance of making noise down the stretch, he'll need to play at that level.

3) BC cannot consistently win games unless a third option offensively steps up. What the hell has happened to Biko Paris? If he played at 3/4 of the level he played early on BC could have won last night.


4)

1 - 3 are stoopid but i agree with point #4

You would, since point #4 is for queer fagolas.

[2001Eagle]

A few thoughts about the game:

1) Coach D was coaching his ass off last night. Exhorting the team to play good defense, get in good defensive positions, subbing for offense defense etc. Really refreshing to see. I think the focus on defense has resulted in an improvement since the UNC game. Clemson did a nice job making their FT's and extending possessions after BC cut the lead. The breakdown after the halftime break was unfortunate but this is a work in progress. My only real criticism is that I wish BC had made an adjustment to dribble drive from the perimeter when it was clear that Clemson was closing out hard on every possession to take away the 3 ball.

2) Glad to see Reggie get his mojo back. It was the best thing about this loss. If BC has any chance of making noise down the stretch, he'll need to play at that level.

3) BC cannot consistently win games unless a third option offensively steps up. What the hell has happened to Biko Paris? If he played at 3/4 of the level he played early on BC could have won last night.


4)

1 - 3 are stoopid but i agree with point #4

You would, since point #4 is for queer fagolas.

Exactly. #4 can only be viewed by AIDS DISEASED 74

[Art Vandelay]

how were the don's cornell teams on D? anyone have any stats? can any cornell fans out there weigh in?

For what its worth Poeroy had them at 117 last year and 152 the year before that.

[twballgame9]

The pathetic defense definitely has something to do with Donahue. No way a team drops from 82 to 257 (Kenpom) with a whole bunch of seniors in the lineup for no reason.

As I mentioned above, defense and offense go hand in hand. Part of the reason the defense has gotten worse was inescapable - this offense does not limit opponent possession like the flex does. That doesn't bother me, and it is not really the Don's fault. We knew it was going to happen.

The rest is attributable to the defense, and it has gotten worse. That's bad.

This is true. I think our defense has gotten a little worse than last year, but not nearly so much as the numbers would lead you to believe. Last year our inability to play defense was hidden some by the fact that we played a slow deliberate offense that limited the other teams possessions and scoring. We weren't a very good defensive team last year either.

This has been our slowest tempo year since 2006! We're 292nd in tempo right now. There is this wide misconception that Donahue runs a fast pace offense when we usually take our time working the ball around the perimeter and inside out to find an open look. You can't blame the bad d this year on a faster pace when the pace is slower than last year's.

Not to mention, one of the things about the tight flex that hurt our D was that it was very susceptible to fast breaks as all 5 guys were closely packed into the lane on some possessions. You can't say that about this offense either. The D has gotten measurably worse and it concerns me going forward.

If that stat says that this offense limits opponent possessions more than the flex, then I am disregarding it as retarded and created by a nerd that never played the game. Moreover, the Don's offense also creates long rebounds more frequently than the flex because shots are further from the basket, leading to more breakaways and uncontested layups.

There is no disputing that the flex masked defensive issues. It is part of the reason to run it.

[twballgame9]

... If anything, this team has overachieved a bit.

then why were a large number of posters here guaranteeing a tournament appearance? you hoops weirdos confuse the hell out of me, homojs style

It is because their opinions are sometimes influenced by their love of BC basketball. Pedro explained this yesterday, durr.

This team has not overachieved. Give me a break. They have beaten two teams they shouldn't have beaten, lost to four that they had NO right losing to, and pretty much went chalk the rest of the way. I'd have had them 17-7 right now, 6-4 in the ACC, with a real shot at the 20 I predicted at the start of the season.

This is a 20 win team.

[cvilleagle]

The pathetic defense definitely has something to do with Donahue. No way a team drops from 82 to 257 (Kenpom) with a whole bunch of seniors in the lineup for no reason.

As I mentioned above, defense and offense go hand in hand. Part of the reason the defense has gotten worse was inescapable - this offense does not limit opponent possession like the flex does. That doesn't bother me, and it is not really the Don's fault. We knew it was going to happen.

The rest is attributable to the defense, and it has gotten worse. That's bad.

This is true. I think our defense has gotten a little worse than last year, but not nearly so much as the numbers would lead you to believe. Last year our inability to play defense was hidden some by the fact that we played a slow deliberate offense that limited the other teams possessions and scoring. We weren't a very good defensive team last year either.

This has been our slowest tempo year since 2006! We're 292nd in tempo right now. There is this wide misconception that Donahue runs a fast pace offense when we usually take our time working the ball around the perimeter and inside out to find an open look. You can't blame the bad d this year on a faster pace when the pace is slower than last year's.

Not to mention, one of the things about the tight flex that hurt our D was that it was very susceptible to fast breaks as all 5 guys were closely packed into the lane on some possessions. You can't say that about this offense either. The D has gotten measurably worse and it concerns me going forward.

If that stat says that this offense limits opponent possessions more than the flex, then I am disregarding it as retarded and created by a nerd that never played the game. Moreover, the Don's offense also creates long rebounds more frequently than the flex because shots are further from the basket, leading to more breakaways and uncontested layups.

There is no disputing that the flex masked defensive issues. It is part of the reason to run it.

But I remember reading that the flex caused defensive issues, too because with everyone in the paint we lacked defensive balance. Not saying it overwhelms the other issues, but it's also not ideal for getting back on D.

[bignick33]

... If anything, this team has overachieved a bit.

then why were a large number of posters here guaranteeing a tournament appearance? you hoops weirdos confuse the hell out of me, homojs style

It is because their opinions are sometimes influenced by their love of BC basketball. Pedro explained this yesterday, durr.

This team has not overachieved. Give me a break. They have beaten two teams they shouldn't have beaten, lost to four that they had NO right losing to, and pretty much went chalk the rest of the way. I'd have had them 17-7 right now, 6-4 in the ACC, with a real shot at the 20 I predicted at the start of the season.

This is a 20 win team.

A 20 win team without a single legitimate big man or anyone who can score off the dribble aside from Reggie...

We didn't have certifiable big men the last couple years either, but we had more scorers on the wing. This is where the loss of Rakim hurts.

[twballgame9]

I started this discussion by noting that the defense is worse this year. It's just not as big of a drop off as the stats would indicate because some of that drop off is attributable to the three point chucking offense that they run now, as opposed to the shot clock burning, inside shot producing, soul crushing flex.

[twballgame9]

... If anything, this team has overachieved a bit.

then why were a large number of posters here guaranteeing a tournament appearance? you hoops weirdos confuse the hell out of me, homojs style

It is because their opinions are sometimes influenced by their love of BC basketball. Pedro explained this yesterday, durr.

This team has not overachieved. Give me a break. They have beaten two teams they shouldn't have beaten, lost to four that they had NO right losing to, and pretty much went chalk the rest of the way. I'd have had them 17-7 right now, 6-4 in the ACC, with a real shot at the 20 I predicted at the start of the season.

This is a 20 win team.

A 20 win team without a single legitimate big man or anyone who can score off the dribble aside from Reggie...

We didn't have certifiable big men the last couple years either, but we had more scorers on the wing. This is where the loss of Rakim hurts.

Big men are irrelevant in college hoop. A nice luxury and a necessity to be an elite team, but not to make the tourney in a weak conference. Guards win college hoop games.

And I basing my judgment not just on the roster, but the games. College basketball in general, and the ACC in particular, are VERY down this year. You don't needed a loaded roster to make the tourney. You just need to not lose to Yale, Harvard, URI and Miami, or beat more good teams than just TAMU and VT.

[bignick33]

I started this discussion by noting that the defense is worse this year. It's just not as big of a drop off as the stats would indicate because some of that drop off is attributable to the three point chucking offense that they run now, as opposed to the shot clock burning, inside shot producing, soul crushing flex.

By the way, I totally agree with you that the change in offensive strategy has a lot to do with the worsening defense. That's a very astute observation. But, the lack of decent big-men combined with the atrocious off-ball defense are big factors as well. In my opinion, BC has underachieved on the defensive end. But, I think as far as expectations go, the drop in defense has been counteracted by a similar improvement at the offensive end. I suppose that this is what we should have expected coming into the season.

What this teams needs an assistant who is a defensive expert, just like how the Celtics needed Thibodeau. Sure, Garnett had a lot to do with the Celtics' worst-to-first defensive shift (and KG correctly gets the lion-share of the credit for the transformation), but an assistant who really knows defensive stuff is vitally important when you have a an offensive-minded head coach. Teams rarely win anything without at least a half-decent defense, no matter how good their offense is.

[BC923]

A team playing poor defense under Donahue will give up far more points than that same team playing under skinner because of tempos and that is why the same team as last year is giving up so many more points.

[bignick33]

A team playing poor defense under Donahue will give up far more points than that same team playing under skinner because of tempos and that is why the same team as last year is giving up so many more points.

Help defense is much worse too. How many times last night did a BC help defender get sealed off when married to his man resulting in a layup? I think there are multiple factors at play, which is why I think at some point we'll need to bring in an assistant who really knows his X and Os on the defensive end.

[pick6pedro]

but an assistant who really knows defensive stuff is vitally important when you have a an offensive-minded head coach.

I asked recently if there was a supposed defensive assistant on staff and if so who he was and if not why there wasn't one. I don't think I got a single answer.

[GodofBeasts94]

... If anything, this team has overachieved a bit.

then why were a large number of posters here guaranteeing a tournament appearance? you hoops weirdos confuse the hell out of me, homojs style

It is because their opinions are sometimes influenced by their love of BC basketball. Pedro explained this yesterday, durr.

True, some of us are influenced by our maroon and gold glasses BUT I don't think anybody has been "guaranteeing a tournament appearance." There's been pretty fair agreement that 9 or 10 conference wins are needed. Personally I think 9 + a tournament win will do it. And I still think 9 are possible. We can win our home games, we can win at VA. I actually think we can win at VT, although it will be tough. Saying we can -- and that hoping that we do -- doesn't a guarantee make.....

[pick6pedro]

... If anything, this team has overachieved a bit.

then why were a large number of posters here guaranteeing a tournament appearance? you hoops weirdos confuse the hell out of me, homojs style

It is because their opinions are sometimes influenced by their love of BC basketball. Pedro explained this yesterday, durr.

True, some of us are influenced by our maroon and gold glasses BUT I don't think anybody has been "guaranteeing a tournament appearance." There's been pretty fair agreement that 9 or 10 conference wins are needed. Personally I think 9 + a tournament win will do it. And I still think 9 are possible. We can win our home games, we can win at VA. I actually think we can win at VT, although it will be tough. Saying we can -- and that hoping that we do -- doesn't a guarantee make.....

I think you missed the "THIS IS A TOURNAMENT TEAM" and "BC WILL MAKE THE SWEET SIXTEEN" threads here.

[gaelfu]

The pathetic defense definitely has something to do with Donahue. No way a team drops from 82 to 257 (Kenpom) with a whole bunch of seniors in the lineup for no reason.

As I mentioned above, defense and offense go hand in hand. Part of the reason the defense has gotten worse was inescapable - this offense does not limit opponent possession like the flex does. That doesn't bother me, and it is not really the Don's fault. We knew it was going to happen.

The rest is attributable to the defense, and it has gotten worse. That's bad.

This is true. I think our defense has gotten a little worse than last year, but not nearly so much as the numbers would lead you to believe. Last year our inability to play defense was hidden some by the fact that we played a slow deliberate offense that limited the other teams possessions and scoring. We weren't a very good defensive team last year either.

This has been our slowest tempo year since 2006! We're 292nd in tempo right now. There is this wide misconception that Donahue runs a fast pace offense when we usually take our time working the ball around the perimeter and inside out to find an open look. You can't blame the bad d this year on a faster pace when the pace is slower than last year's.

Not to mention, one of the things about the tight flex that hurt our D was that it was very susceptible to fast breaks as all 5 guys were closely packed into the lane on some possessions. You can't say that about this offense either. The D has gotten measurably worse and it concerns me going forward.

If that stat says that this offense limits opponent possessions more than the flex, then I am disregarding it as retarded and created by a nerd that never played the game. Moreover, the Don's offense also creates long rebounds more frequently than the flex because shots are further from the basket, leading to more breakaways and uncontested layups.

There is no disputing that the flex masked defensive issues. It is part of the reason to run it.

Uh... why? Adjusted tempo is a simple thing to calculate that requires no subjective analysis whatsoever. We're a slower team this year relative to the rest of the hoops landscape than we were last year. It's not up for debate. I also stand by my point that the turnovers we had when we ran the flex under Al when everyone was clustered in the paint (and again, we had many more turnovers last year) more than offset the effect of more long rebounds when it comes to opponent fast break points.

[twballgame9]

The pathetic defense definitely has something to do with Donahue. No way a team drops from 82 to 257 (Kenpom) with a whole bunch of seniors in the lineup for no reason.

As I mentioned above, defense and offense go hand in hand. Part of the reason the defense has gotten worse was inescapable - this offense does not limit opponent possession like the flex does. That doesn't bother me, and it is not really the Don's fault. We knew it was going to happen.

The rest is attributable to the defense, and it has gotten worse. That's bad.

This is true. I think our defense has gotten a little worse than last year, but not nearly so much as the numbers would lead you to believe. Last year our inability to play defense was hidden some by the fact that we played a slow deliberate offense that limited the other teams possessions and scoring. We weren't a very good defensive team last year either.

This has been our slowest tempo year since 2006! We're 292nd in tempo right now. There is this wide misconception that Donahue runs a fast pace offense when we usually take our time working the ball around the perimeter and inside out to find an open look. You can't blame the bad d this year on a faster pace when the pace is slower than last year's.

Not to mention, one of the things about the tight flex that hurt our D was that it was very susceptible to fast breaks as all 5 guys were closely packed into the lane on some possessions. You can't say that about this offense either. The D has gotten measurably worse and it concerns me going forward.

If that stat says that this offense limits opponent possessions more than the flex, then I am disregarding it as retarded and created by a nerd that never played the game. Moreover, the Don's offense also creates long rebounds more frequently than the flex because shots are further from the basket, leading to more breakaways and uncontested layups.

There is no disputing that the flex masked defensive issues. It is part of the reason to run it.

Uh... why? Adjusted tempo is a simple thing to calculate that requires no subjective analysis whatsoever. We're a slower team this year relative to the rest of the hoops landscape than we were last year. It's not up for debate. I also stand by my point that the turnovers we had when we ran the flex under Al when everyone was clustered in the paint (and again, we had many more turnovers last year) more than offset the effect of more long rebounds when it comes to opponent fast break points.

VORP. Of course it is up for debate. Actually, it's not, the new style of offense has a negative net effect on the defense. Period. Don't need some stat nerd that doesn't have a clue like Pomeroy to explain that. Also, BC didn't turn the ball over that much under AL, one or two steals at the top of the key in the flex on overplays per game notwithstanding.

[twballgame9]

PS, I liked Al, I like the Don, I think the defense sucks worse now, but not to a degree that the stat nerds would say since trying to measure defense in a vacuum in hoop is retarded, and the current offense creates more offense for opponents than the historical flex since it creates more opponent possessions, prefers long shots from poor shooters, and often has the PG, Reggie Jackson, down in the paint trying to rebound.

Oh, and Pomerpoy is a tool that spent his high school basketball career keeping score like Bill James. The guy is a meteorologist ferchrissakes, so he knows being wrong whilst relying on statistics.

[Art Vandelay]

The pathetic defense definitely has something to do with Donahue. No way a team drops from 82 to 257 (Kenpom) with a whole bunch of seniors in the lineup for no reason.

As I mentioned above, defense and offense go hand in hand. Part of the reason the defense has gotten worse was inescapable - this offense does not limit opponent possession like the flex does. That doesn't bother me, and it is not really the Don's fault. We knew it was going to happen.

The rest is attributable to the defense, and it has gotten worse. That's bad.

This is true. I think our defense has gotten a little worse than last year, but not nearly so much as the numbers would lead you to believe. Last year our inability to play defense was hidden some by the fact that we played a slow deliberate offense that limited the other teams possessions and scoring. We weren't a very good defensive team last year either.

This has been our slowest tempo year since 2006! We're 292nd in tempo right now. There is this wide misconception that Donahue runs a fast pace offense when we usually take our time working the ball around the perimeter and inside out to find an open look. You can't blame the bad d this year on a faster pace when the pace is slower than last year's.

Not to mention, one of the things about the tight flex that hurt our D was that it was very susceptible to fast breaks as all 5 guys were closely packed into the lane on some possessions. You can't say that about this offense either. The D has gotten measurably worse and it concerns me going forward.

If that stat says that this offense limits opponent possessions more than the flex, then I am disregarding it as retarded and created by a nerd that never played the game. Moreover, the Don's offense also creates long rebounds more frequently than the flex because shots are further from the basket, leading to more breakaways and uncontested layups.

There is no disputing that the flex masked defensive issues. It is part of the reason to run it.

Uh... why? Adjusted tempo is a simple thing to calculate that requires no subjective analysis whatsoever. We're a slower team this year relative to the rest of the hoops landscape than we were last year. It's not up for debate. I also stand by my point that the turnovers we had when we ran the flex under Al when everyone was clustered in the paint (and again, we had many more turnovers last year) more than offset the effect of more long rebounds when it comes to opponent fast break points.

VORP. Of course it is up for debate. Actually, it's not, the new style of offense has a negative net effect on the defense. Period. Don't need some stat nerd that doesn't have a clue like Pomeroy to explain that. Also, BC didn't turn the ball over that much under AL, one or two steals at the top of the key in the flex on overplays per game notwithstanding.

I think this is one of those times you need to use your eyes and can't rely on stats from guys like Pomeroy. I don't have a problem with those measures and some of them are pretty good, but they can't be relied on as gospel. For example Pomeroy's stats say BC is good at offense and bad at defense, which is certainly accurate....of course I knew that without a stat.

[gaelfu]

The pathetic defense definitely has something to do with Donahue. No way a team drops from 82 to 257 (Kenpom) with a whole bunch of seniors in the lineup for no reason.

As I mentioned above, defense and offense go hand in hand. Part of the reason the defense has gotten worse was inescapable - this offense does not limit opponent possession like the flex does. That doesn't bother me, and it is not really the Don's fault. We knew it was going to happen.

The rest is attributable to the defense, and it has gotten worse. That's bad.

This is true. I think our defense has gotten a little worse than last year, but not nearly so much as the numbers would lead you to believe. Last year our inability to play defense was hidden some by the fact that we played a slow deliberate offense that limited the other teams possessions and scoring. We weren't a very good defensive team last year either.

This has been our slowest tempo year since 2006! We're 292nd in tempo right now. There is this wide misconception that Donahue runs a fast pace offense when we usually take our time working the ball around the perimeter and inside out to find an open look. You can't blame the bad d this year on a faster pace when the pace is slower than last year's.

Not to mention, one of the things about the tight flex that hurt our D was that it was very susceptible to fast breaks as all 5 guys were closely packed into the lane on some possessions. You can't say that about this offense either. The D has gotten measurably worse and it concerns me going forward.

If that stat says that this offense limits opponent possessions more than the flex, then I am disregarding it as retarded and created by a nerd that never played the game. Moreover, the Don's offense also creates long rebounds more frequently than the flex because shots are further from the basket, leading to more breakaways and uncontested layups.

There is no disputing that the flex masked defensive issues. It is part of the reason to run it.

Uh... why? Adjusted tempo is a simple thing to calculate that requires no subjective analysis whatsoever. We're a slower team this year relative to the rest of the hoops landscape than we were last year. It's not up for debate. I also stand by my point that the turnovers we had when we ran the flex under Al when everyone was clustered in the paint (and again, we had many more turnovers last year) more than offset the effect of more long rebounds when it comes to opponent fast break points.

VORP. Of course it is up for debate. Actually, it's not, the new style of offense has a negative net effect on the defense. Period. Don't need some stat nerd that doesn't have a clue like Pomeroy to explain that. Also, BC didn't turn the ball over that much under AL, one or two steals at the top of the key in the flex on overplays per game notwithstanding.

I think this is one of those times you need to use your eyes and can't rely on stats from guys like Pomeroy. I don't have a problem with those measures and some of them are pretty good, but they can't be relied on as gospel. For example Pomeroy's stats say BC is good at offense and bad at defense, which is certainly accurate....of course I knew that without a stat.

I can understand this line of reasoning when you're talking about his team offensive and defensive efficiency ratings or his player ratings. You can't evaluate how good a player or a team is in a statistical vacuum. Corey Raji isn't one of the top 20 offensive players in the country. But the adjusted tempo stat simply comes down to counting BC's possessions and a simple comparison of the teams we play against. We're a slower team this year than we were last year, and we play at a slower tempo than we averaged under Al. Period. Explain to me how this is up for debate again? It's counting.

[twballgame9]

I ahve exhausted my limit of patience with this inanity. I actually was the person that first said the point that you are trying to make, that the defense is worse than it was last year, and some of that is on the coach.

I was just pointing out that the retarded reference to the drop in defense earlier in the thread treats defense as if it were in a vacuum, and the obvious point, watching a game or two instead of the stats on the Interwebs, that the new and improved offense is creating possessions and scoring opportunities for opponents.

I'd also note that that stat ignores a few things. When packed in the paint, it is easier to rebound on the offensive end. When Corey Raji is in the flex, he is not floating around the three point line with Trapani. They are more likely to get offensive boards by a long shot.

Is an offensive board and kick out a new possession? Which way does that skew the stats - because it does - does it make the offensive rebounding team a slow team, or does it actually make them faster? Depends on how you treat the consequence of that board.

Just a small example of how blind reliance on stats is dumb, and, as of this moment, no longer worth debating.

[gaelfu]

Yes, the defense has gotten worse. No, the type of offense we play doesn't have anything to do with it. Wisconsin plays a motion offense not unlike ours (they too are very slow), jacks up a ton of 3s and long 2s, and manages to play great defense year after year. And Wisconsin hasn't exactly been pumping out NBA caliber defenders since Bo Ryan has been there. The Don's offense is not some precursor to bad defense. Our players didn't regress this badly this year all by themselves. The defensive scheme sucks and the Don needs to coach better on that side of the ball. At this point, I'd say Al was a much better defensive coach, and it had nothing to do with the type of offense he ran.

I'll leave it at that.

[eepstein0]

Yes, the defense has gotten worse. No, the type of offense we play doesn't have anything to do with it. Wisconsin plays a motion offense not unlike ours (they too are very slow), jacks up a ton of 3s and long 2s, and manages to play great defense year after year. And Wisconsin hasn't exactly been pumping out NBA caliber defenders since Bo Ryan has been there. The Don's offense is not some precursor to bad defense. Our players didn't regress this badly this year all by themselves. The defensive scheme sucks and the Don needs to coach better on that side of the ball. At this point, I'd say Al was a much better defensive coach, and it had nothing to do with the type of offense he ran.

I'll leave it at that.

When BC wants to play defense (see parts of the Clemson game and most the VT game), they're actually a very good defensive team. They just get bored with it after a while and get slaughtered. One thing Donahue needs to stop with is dicking around with all these different zones, etc. This team is best when they play M-2-M and actually puts in a good effort. They get lazy when playing the zone.

[eepstein0]

I started this discussion by noting that the defense is worse this year. It's just not as big of a drop off as the stats would indicate because some of that drop off is attributable to the three point chucking offense that they run now, as opposed to the shot clock burning, inside shot producing, soul crushing flex.

The only thing soul crushing about the flex was when our C would try and feed the PG who was posting up, turn the ball over and watch as the other team got a breakaway dunk. That was soul crushing every single time it happened. Any offense that predicates on the center feeding the PG in the post is completely retarded, no matter what TWB might have to say about it. Packing 5 guys into the paint also completely violates any notion of floor spacing.

[Art Vandelay]

Yes, the defense has gotten worse. No, the type of offense we play doesn't have anything to do with it. Wisconsin plays a motion offense not unlike ours (they too are very slow), jacks up a ton of 3s and long 2s, and manages to play great defense year after year. And Wisconsin hasn't exactly been pumping out NBA caliber defenders since Bo Ryan has been there. The Don's offense is not some precursor to bad defense. Our players didn't regress this badly this year all by themselves. The defensive scheme sucks and the Don needs to coach better on that side of the ball. At this point, I'd say Al was a much better defensive coach, and it had nothing to do with the type of offense he ran.

I'll leave it at that.

When BC wants to play defense (see parts of the Clemson game and most the VT game), they're actually a very good defensive team. They just get bored with it after a while and get slaughtered. One thing Donahue needs to stop with is dicking around with all these different zones, etc. This team is best when they play M-2-M and actually puts in a good effort. They get lazy when playing the zone.

While I do think the style of offense does have in impact on the defense its not an excuse for bad defense. This really goes back to the argument about defense being about effort. I think this offense leads to a lot of long rebounds and runouts but that doesn't mean it's impossibe to play good defense. You have to work harder on defense at times to get back in transition, but it can be done. The issue is a combination of bad defensive fundamentals and lack of defensive effort, which I feel the short bench contributes to especially late in games. Whether they are zone or man to man should not matter (Note: I am not saying you are wrong about them getting lazy in man to man, but my response to that is not stop playing zone but stop being lazy) In a lot of cases we have trouble matching up man to man (see UNC) so zone would be preferred.

[MilitantEagle]

soul crushing flex.

Soul crushing for whom? The other team or the BC fans?

Edit - I see eep covered this issue.