Commits/Recruiting

[Art Vandelay]

Ok first of all Hewitt has been to a final four, but that's not the point.

I'm not saying there is any sybstance with that program, but you keep throwing out a cute one liner of style over substance. If hewitt has style and neither have substance, that is style over nothing.

So you're dissatisfied with the past three years of BC basketball, but would be happy with essentially the same results if it came with a bunch of high profile recruits and a coach who jumps up and down more?

And I know Hewitt went to the Final Four. But he's done absolutely nothing in the 6 years since, despite his recruiting prowess.

As I said the final four was not the point. And it's clear you are missing mine. All I was saying that given a choice of Hewitt or Al and no other options given I would take Hewitt. I do not think Hewitt would dramatically improve the overall results over Al, but yes watching a more excting team (that does not play the flex) would be an upgrade, slight as it may be. Also, with superior recruting comes the possibility, remote as it may be, that you could get the right group of kids the same year and make a final four run. With Al that does not even feel like a remote chance.

[Art Vandelay]

Try to stay with me here. The last three are the most recent three and that is what I care about. Yesterday is in the past so is ten years ago. Which do you base a decision on?

You're the one that drew the line, not me.

19-29 in conference over three seasons. 2 out of the last three sub .500 overall (and with the OOC schedule being what it is that is not that easy to do). I won't even debate the "successes" with you, becuase I don't care. I care about what has happened recently.

Of course what has happened recently is more appropriate to assessing Al's standing. Too bad it's not what I was asking about. You've limited your discussion to just 3 years, and therefore avoiding answering the question.

Learn to read by the way. I said "even if you assume" - I did not say that was your assumption I was stipulating a point for sake of the argument.

Apparently you want to give a lifetime pass for all of his "successes", which were fairly limited at that. - look familiar?

Apologies on the last point since I did clearly miss that.

Honestly I'm done debating this with you becuase instead of trying to have a reasonable discussion you seem to prefer debating semantics.

[b0mberMan]

Ok first of all Hewitt has been to a final four, but that's not the point.

I'm not saying there is any sybstance with that program, but you keep throwing out a cute one liner of style over substance. If hewitt has style and neither have substance, that is style over nothing.

So you're dissatisfied with the past three years of BC basketball, but would be happy with essentially the same results if it came with a bunch of high profile recruits and a coach who jumps up and down more?

And I know Hewitt went to the Final Four. But he's done absolutely nothing in the 6 years since, despite his recruiting prowess.

As I said the final four was not the point. And it's clear you are missing mine. All I was saying that given a choice of Hewitt or Al and no other options given I would take Hewitt. I do not think Hewitt would dramatically improve the overall results over Al, but yes watching a more excting team (that does not play the flex) would be an upgrade, slight as it may be. Also, with superior recruting comes the possibility, remote as it may be, that you could get the right group of kids the same year and make a final four run. With Al that does not even feel like a remote chance.

And the Fire Al crowd calls his supporters merrymen. Here's one who's willing to settle for "more exciting" even if it means the same results.

If I got to choose to replace Al with someone, I'd want someone effective not "more exciting" but with the same results.

[pick6pedro]

Try to stay with me here. The last three are the most recent three and that is what I care about. Yesterday is in the past so is ten years ago. Which do you base a decision on?

You're the one that drew the line, not me.

19-29 in conference over three seasons. 2 out of the last three sub .500 overall (and with the OOC schedule being what it is that is not that easy to do). I won't even debate the "successes" with you, becuase I don't care. I care about what has happened recently.

Of course what has happened recently is more appropriate to assessing Al's standing. Too bad it's not what I was asking about. You've limited your discussion to just 3 years, and therefore avoiding answering the question.

Learn to read by the way. I said "even if you assume" - I did not say that was your assumption I was stipulating a point for sake of the argument.

Apparently you want to give a lifetime pass for all of his "successes", which were fairly limited at that. - look familiar?

Apologies on the last point since I did clearly miss that.

Honestly I'm done debating this with you becuase instead of trying to have a reasonable discussion you seem to prefer debating semantics.

Uh, no actually I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. All these side points have been your doing, sir.

[Art Vandelay]

Ok first of all Hewitt has been to a final four, but that's not the point.

I'm not saying there is any sybstance with that program, but you keep throwing out a cute one liner of style over substance. If hewitt has style and neither have substance, that is style over nothing.

So you're dissatisfied with the past three years of BC basketball, but would be happy with essentially the same results if it came with a bunch of high profile recruits and a coach who jumps up and down more?

And I know Hewitt went to the Final Four. But he's done absolutely nothing in the 6 years since, despite his recruiting prowess.

As I said the final four was not the point. And it's clear you are missing mine. All I was saying that given a choice of Hewitt or Al and no other options given I would take Hewitt. I do not think Hewitt would dramatically improve the overall results over Al, but yes watching a more excting team (that does not play the flex) would be an upgrade, slight as it may be. Also, with superior recruting comes the possibility, remote as it may be, that you could get the right group of kids the same year and make a final four run. With Al that does not even feel like a remote chance.

And the Fire Al crowd calls his supporters merrymen. Here's one who's willing to settle for "more exciting" even if it means the same results.

If I got to choose to replace Al with someone, I'd want someone effective not "more exciting" but with the same results.

OK I'm done with you now too becuase you are clearly unable to read. I FUCKING SAID IF IT WAS A CHOICE OF AL OR HEWITT AND NO ONE ELSE. Obviously that is not the case. It is a hypothetical situation you fucking ass bag. I do not want to go hire Paul Hewitt.

[b0mberMan]

Ok first of all Hewitt has been to a final four, but that's not the point.

I'm not saying there is any sybstance with that program, but you keep throwing out a cute one liner of style over substance. If hewitt has style and neither have substance, that is style over nothing.

So you're dissatisfied with the past three years of BC basketball, but would be happy with essentially the same results if it came with a bunch of high profile recruits and a coach who jumps up and down more?

And I know Hewitt went to the Final Four. But he's done absolutely nothing in the 6 years since, despite his recruiting prowess.

As I said the final four was not the point. And it's clear you are missing mine. All I was saying that given a choice of Hewitt or Al and no other options given I would take Hewitt. I do not think Hewitt would dramatically improve the overall results over Al, but yes watching a more excting team (that does not play the flex) would be an upgrade, slight as it may be. Also, with superior recruting comes the possibility, remote as it may be, that you could get the right group of kids the same year and make a final four run. With Al that does not even feel like a remote chance.

And the Fire Al crowd calls his supporters merrymen. Here's one who's willing to settle for "more exciting" even if it means the same results.

If I got to choose to replace Al with someone, I'd want someone effective not "more exciting" but with the same results.

OK I'm done with you now too becuase you are clearly unable to read. I FUCKING SAID IF IT WAS A CHOICE OF AL OR HEWITT AND NO ONE ELSE. Obviously that is not the case. It is a hypothetical situation you fucking ass bag. I do not want to go hire Paul Hewitt.

My point is it's fun to watch someone defend Paul Hewitt as a choice for anything. He's terrible. I'm guessing you made the statement offhand without considering what he's actually done and only the fact that he claps alot more on the sideline.

[Art Vandelay]

Try to stay with me here. The last three are the most recent three and that is what I care about. Yesterday is in the past so is ten years ago. Which do you base a decision on?

You're the one that drew the line, not me.

19-29 in conference over three seasons. 2 out of the last three sub .500 overall (and with the OOC schedule being what it is that is not that easy to do). I won't even debate the "successes" with you, becuase I don't care. I care about what has happened recently.

Of course what has happened recently is more appropriate to assessing Al's standing. Too bad it's not what I was asking about. You've limited your discussion to just 3 years, and therefore avoiding answering the question.

Learn to read by the way. I said "even if you assume" - I did not say that was your assumption I was stipulating a point for sake of the argument.

Apparently you want to give a lifetime pass for all of his "successes", which were fairly limited at that. - look familiar?

Apologies on the last point since I did clearly miss that.

Honestly I'm done debating this with you becuase instead of trying to have a reasonable discussion you seem to prefer debating semantics.

Uh, no actually I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. All these side points have been your doing, sir.

OK I said I was done but I'm bored at work so what the hell. What exactly is your question? What do I attribute Al's "successes?" I think in the past Al has done a good job of recruiting kids who both fit his system and were somewhat under recruited. Dudley, Smith, Bell for example. That has not happened of late and what has been the result is a team that does not have the players to fit the system and a coach who refuses to adjust.

[pick6pedro]

OK I said I was done but I'm bored at work so what the hell. What exactly is your question? What do I attribute Al's "successes?" I think in the past Al has done a good job of recruiting kids who both fit his system and were somewhat under recruited. Dudley, Smith, Bell for example. That has not happened of late and what has been the result is a team that does not have the players to fit the system and a coach who refuses to adjust.

Yes, that was my question. And I agree with your answer. I do disagree that it should be viewed in a 3 year window out of convenience for an argument (or for whatever reason you only "care" about this period). To me, it's a sliding scale where the more recent the period, the more important it is to assessing a coach's skills and/or offerings. So I don't throw prior to 3 years out the window, but I clearly weigh recent seasons more heavily towards my judgments.

I've been fairly vocal about my feelings towards Al and expectations for next year, so I won't bother getting into that. I just thought it was curious that Hewitt offered "something" and Al "nothing". You've since clarified, and I do appreciate that.


Oh, and OJ - STFU.

[eepstein0]

Paul Hewitt is absolutely brutal. He can recruit like crazy but is such an awful coach his teams routinely do nothing. He made a Final Four, which is a whole lot better than we've seen here recently but still, no thanks. I'd rather just have Skinner if the replacement is of Paul Hewitt level.

They're all equally bad, Haith, Hamilton, Hewitt, Purnell, Skinner, Lowe, Greenberg (Seth has done exactly nothing at VT, except increase media exposure which hasn't exactly led to NCAA success). The more I think about things, the more I think there are some terrible coaches in the ACC.

Gaudio, Coach K, Roy Williams, Gary Williams and Mark Bennett are the only ones who have any clue what's going on.

[eepstein0]

Seth Greenberg sent an e-mail to all VT Students drubbing up support for the NIT game tonight vs. UConn. Random fun fact.

[twballgame9]

I'm liking Keno Davis more and more. But there's no denying his Big East failure this year. His team was better than how they played. Players like Marshon Brooks and Sharaud Curry and not to mention an NBA future star in Jamine Peterson shold've done better than 12-19. I smell a good recruiter-bad in game coach. That's why I like Bill Coen.

Good recruiter awful coach...hmm who does that remind me of?

Roy Williams?

Yes, that is certainly worthy of sarcasm. I mean, there is no reason to say a guy is a great recruiter and bad coach when he takes 7 MCDs All Americans to a glorious first round victory in the NIT.

[twballgame9]

I'll take the good recruiter awful coaches listed here over Al any day. One out of two is better than nothing.

Again, I just still don't get comments like this. To what do you attribute Al's successes?

I'm living in the now, not the past. The last three years have been terrible. Apparently you want to give a lifetime pass for all of his "successes", which were fairly limited at that.

Paul Hewitt is a better recruiter and I don't think I've ever heard anyone debate that very specific point.
Al Skinner is a lousy game coach and I don't think too many people have debated that. So even if you assume Paul Hewitt is a lousy game coach as well doesn't that still put him a step above Al?

Please note I am not advocating they get Paul Hewitt to take over BC, but if given a choice of the two I'll take Hewitt in a heartbeat.

Anyone that would hire Paul Hewitt to coach their basketball team shout be put out of their own misery. Guy makes Roy Williams and Al Skinner look like Clausewitz.

[claver2010]

Forgive me for trying to get back to the point of the thread but with 6 scholarships opening up in 2010-11 is there any word on anyone BC has come in contact with?

[commavegarage]

I'm liking Keno Davis more and more. But there's no denying his Big East failure this year. His team was better than how they played. Players like Marshon Brooks and Sharaud Curry and not to mention an NBA future star in Jamine Peterson shold've done better than 12-19. I smell a good recruiter-bad in game coach. That's why I like Bill Coen.

Good recruiter awful coach...hmm who does that remind me of?

Roy Williams?

Yes, that is certainly worthy of sarcasm. I mean, there is no reason to say a guy is a great recruiter and bad coach when he takes 7 MCDs All Americans to a glorious first round victory in the NIT.

I'm pretty sure you get a pass when you won the national championship last year, made the final four the year before, and made the elite 8 the year before that. This was the first time since 1989 that he didn't make the NCAA tournament, and the only reason he didn't make it the first year as a head coach was because the school was ineligible due to prior violations. On top of this, he has never lost in the NCAA tournament in the first round. That is 20 consecutive years of at least winning one game in the tournament.

Nice try though.

[b0mberMan]

I'll take the good recruiter awful coaches listed here over Al any day. One out of two is better than nothing.

Again, I just still don't get comments like this. To what do you attribute Al's successes?

I'm living in the now, not the past. The last three years have been terrible. Apparently you want to give a lifetime pass for all of his "successes", which were fairly limited at that.

Paul Hewitt is a better recruiter and I don't think I've ever heard anyone debate that very specific point.
Al Skinner is a lousy game coach and I don't think too many people have debated that. So even if you assume Paul Hewitt is a lousy game coach as well doesn't that still put him a step above Al?

Please note I am not advocating they get Paul Hewitt to take over BC, but if given a choice of the two I'll take Hewitt in a heartbeat.

Anyone that would hire Paul Hewitt to coach their basketball team shout be put out of their own misery. Guy makes Roy Williams and Al Skinner look like Clausewitz.

We may have to take St. John's out back and shoot them since Hewitt apparently spoke with them this week.

[twballgame9]

I'm liking Keno Davis more and more. But there's no denying his Big East failure this year. His team was better than how they played. Players like Marshon Brooks and Sharaud Curry and not to mention an NBA future star in Jamine Peterson shold've done better than 12-19. I smell a good recruiter-bad in game coach. That's why I like Bill Coen.

Good recruiter awful coach...hmm who does that remind me of?

Roy Williams?

Yes, that is certainly worthy of sarcasm. I mean, there is no reason to say a guy is a great recruiter and bad coach when he takes 7 MCDs All Americans to a glorious first round victory in the NIT.

I'm pretty sure you get a pass when you won the national championship last year, made the final four the year before, and made the elite 8 the year before that. This was the first time since 1989 that he didn't make the NCAA tournament, and the only reason he didn't make it the first year as a head coach was because the school was ineligible due to prior violations. On top of this, he has never lost in the NCAA tournament in the first round. That is 20 consecutive years of at least winning one game in the tournament.

Nice try though.

Yes, the fact that his NBA teams have had trouble losing college games has everything to do with how he calls plays and uses timeouts. He gets a pass for fucking up All Americans, but Al doesn't get a pass when you all don't think he has any talent?

[Art Vandelay]

I'm liking Keno Davis more and more. But there's no denying his Big East failure this year. His team was better than how they played. Players like Marshon Brooks and Sharaud Curry and not to mention an NBA future star in Jamine Peterson shold've done better than 12-19. I smell a good recruiter-bad in game coach. That's why I like Bill Coen.

Good recruiter awful coach...hmm who does that remind me of?

Roy Williams?

Yes, that is certainly worthy of sarcasm. I mean, there is no reason to say a guy is a great recruiter and bad coach when he takes 7 MCDs All Americans to a glorious first round victory in the NIT.

I'm pretty sure you get a pass when you won the national championship last year, made the final four the year before, and made the elite 8 the year before that. This was the first time since 1989 that he didn't make the NCAA tournament, and the only reason he didn't make it the first year as a head coach was because the school was ineligible due to prior violations. On top of this, he has never lost in the NCAA tournament in the first round. That is 20 consecutive years of at least winning one game in the tournament.

Nice try though.

Yes, the fact that his NBA teams have had trouble losing college games has everything to do with how he calls plays and uses timeouts. He gets a pass for fucking up All Americans, but Al doesn't get a pass when you all don't think he has any talent?

I think his point was that this season was a fuck up for Roy Williams, but its one fuck up in a series of successful seasons most recently a national championship. When Al wins a national championship the next year I'll give him a pass if he pisses himself on the sidelines while losing to NJIT.

Just curious - what is it you are basing your contention that Roy Williams is a shitty coach? I know we have all witnessed Al sucking as a game coach up close and personal (flex offense, no adjustments, odd rotation, no timeouts etc). What is the basis for claiming Williams is a terrible game coach? I'm not saying your wrong by the way becuase I really don't know for sure, but it seems like everyone has opinions on these coaches and I wonder what they are based on. It's not like we see them in action enough to judge them as we do Al.

Seems to me results are the main thing and 2 National Championships and 7 final fours while winning 80% of your games is pretty good. We all know he can recruit, but he had an excellent recruiting class this year as you point out so if he didn't know how to coach wouldn't he have fucked up a 5 star recruiting class sometime in the last 22 years like he did this year?

[twballgame9]

I'm liking Keno Davis more and more. But there's no denying his Big East failure this year. His team was better than how they played. Players like Marshon Brooks and Sharaud Curry and not to mention an NBA future star in Jamine Peterson shold've done better than 12-19. I smell a good recruiter-bad in game coach. That's why I like Bill Coen.

Good recruiter awful coach...hmm who does that remind me of?

Roy Williams?

Yes, that is certainly worthy of sarcasm. I mean, there is no reason to say a guy is a great recruiter and bad coach when he takes 7 MCDs All Americans to a glorious first round victory in the NIT.

I'm pretty sure you get a pass when you won the national championship last year, made the final four the year before, and made the elite 8 the year before that. This was the first time since 1989 that he didn't make the NCAA tournament, and the only reason he didn't make it the first year as a head coach was because the school was ineligible due to prior violations. On top of this, he has never lost in the NCAA tournament in the first round. That is 20 consecutive years of at least winning one game in the tournament.

Nice try though.

Yes, the fact that his NBA teams have had trouble losing college games has everything to do with how he calls plays and uses timeouts. He gets a pass for fucking up All Americans, but Al doesn't get a pass when you all don't think he has any talent?

I think his point was that this season was a fuck up for Roy Williams, but its one fuck up in a series of successful seasons most recently a national championship. When Al wins a national championship the next year I'll give him a pass if he pisses himself on the sidelines while losing to NJIT.

Just curious - what is it you are basing your contention that Roy Williams is a shitty coach? I know we have all witnessed Al sucking as a game coach up close and personal (flex offense, no adjustments, odd rotation, no timeouts etc). What is the basis for claiming Williams is a terrible game coach? I'm not saying your wrong by the way becuase I really don't know for sure, but it seems like everyone has opinions on these coaches and I wonder what they are based on. It's not like we see them in action enough to judge them as we do Al.

Seems to me results are the main thing and 2 National Championships and 7 final fours while winning 80% of your games is pretty good. We all know he can recruit, but he had an excellent recruiting class this year as you point out so if he didn't know how to coach wouldn't he have fucked up a 5 star recruiting class sometime in the last 22 years like he did this year?

So simply getting to the tournament is good enough for Roy Williams and not Al Skinner? Because this is not the first team Roy has fucked up, just the first team of All Americans that he has fucked up so bad that he missed the NCAAs entirely. Paul Pierce, Raef LaFrentz, Jacques Vaughn, Scot Pollard and the 1997 Kansas Jayhawks say hello. And that is hardly the only example. Roy Williams' Kansas teams were always the bracket favorites for early round exits.

I base my opinion of Roy Williams on two things: 1) watching him look clueless 10 times a year on TV (and once or twice live) and 2) the fact that he has had an average of just under 1.5 NBA players per season in his 22 years. That works out to almost 6 NBA players for any given 4 year period. Not that most of them stay for all four years, and only some of them were NBA stars, but you get the point.

No one disputes Roy Williams' ability to bring the talent in, although it ain't that difficult where he has coached. The guy got a premier job at Kansas by being a recruiting guru for his overrated mentor, and never came up through the ranks of smaller programs, earning his stripes. He has been able to survive on great recruiting.

Ask a UNC fan what they think of Roy's in-game coaching. You'll probably get an unfair answer this season, but they have always been critical of his ability to use the chalkboard.

End of the day, recruiting is part of his job and he gets credit for that. Running a good program and being a CEO is part of his job, and he gets credit for that. But saying you can't criticize his strategic ability because he has won a couple of national titles, while shitting on Al for not making the Final Four, ignores the grotesque talent discrepancy that has existed. Part of that is Al's failures in recruiting, part of it is that BC is not UNC. No excuses. But at UNC and Kansas, 2 National Titles in 22 years does not, by definition, make you a great Xs and Os guy.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm liking Keno Davis more and more. But there's no denying his Big East failure this year. His team was better than how they played. Players like Marshon Brooks and Sharaud Curry and not to mention an NBA future star in Jamine Peterson shold've done better than 12-19. I smell a good recruiter-bad in game coach. That's why I like Bill Coen.

Good recruiter awful coach...hmm who does that remind me of?

Roy Williams?

Yes, that is certainly worthy of sarcasm. I mean, there is no reason to say a guy is a great recruiter and bad coach when he takes 7 MCDs All Americans to a glorious first round victory in the NIT.

I'm pretty sure you get a pass when you won the national championship last year, made the final four the year before, and made the elite 8 the year before that. This was the first time since 1989 that he didn't make the NCAA tournament, and the only reason he didn't make it the first year as a head coach was because the school was ineligible due to prior violations. On top of this, he has never lost in the NCAA tournament in the first round. That is 20 consecutive years of at least winning one game in the tournament.

Nice try though.

Yes, the fact that his NBA teams have had trouble losing college games has everything to do with how he calls plays and uses timeouts. He gets a pass for fucking up All Americans, but Al doesn't get a pass when you all don't think he has any talent?

I think his point was that this season was a fuck up for Roy Williams, but its one fuck up in a series of successful seasons most recently a national championship. When Al wins a national championship the next year I'll give him a pass if he pisses himself on the sidelines while losing to NJIT.

Just curious - what is it you are basing your contention that Roy Williams is a shitty coach? I know we have all witnessed Al sucking as a game coach up close and personal (flex offense, no adjustments, odd rotation, no timeouts etc). What is the basis for claiming Williams is a terrible game coach? I'm not saying your wrong by the way becuase I really don't know for sure, but it seems like everyone has opinions on these coaches and I wonder what they are based on. It's not like we see them in action enough to judge them as we do Al.

Seems to me results are the main thing and 2 National Championships and 7 final fours while winning 80% of your games is pretty good. We all know he can recruit, but he had an excellent recruiting class this year as you point out so if he didn't know how to coach wouldn't he have fucked up a 5 star recruiting class sometime in the last 22 years like he did this year?

So simply getting to the tournament is good enough for Roy Williams and not Al Skinner? Because this is not the first team Roy has fucked up, just the first team of All Americans that he has fucked up so bad that he missed the NCAAs entirely. Paul Pierce, Raef LaFrentz, Jacques Vaughn, Scot Pollard and the 1997 Kansas Jayhawks say hello. And that is hardly the only example. Roy Williams' Kansas teams were always the bracket favorites for early round exits.

I base my opinion of Roy Williams on two things: 1) watching him look clueless 10 times a year on TV (and once or twice live) and 2) the fact that he has had an average of just under 1.5 NBA players per season in his 22 years. That works out to almost 6 NBA players for any given 4 year period. Not that most of them stay for all four years, and only some of them were NBA stars, but you get the point.

No one disputes Roy Williams' ability to bring the talent in, although it ain't that difficult where he has coached. The guy got a premier job at Kansas by being a recruiting guru for his overrated mentor, and never came up through the ranks of smaller programs, earning his stripes. He has been able to survive on great recruiting.

Ask a UNC fan what they think of Roy's in-game coaching. You'll probably get an unfair answer this season, but they have always been critical of his ability to use the chalkboard.

End of the day, recruiting is part of his job and he gets credit for that. Running a good program and being a CEO is part of his job, and he gets credit for that. But saying you can't criticize his strategic ability because he has won a couple of national titles, while shitting on Al for not making the Final Four, ignores the grotesque talent discrepancy that has existed. Part of that is Al's failures in recruiting, part of it is that BC is not UNC. No excuses. But at UNC and Kansas, 2 National Titles in 22 years does not, by definition, make you a great Xs and Os guy.

I never said simply getting to the tourney was enough. 7 final fours and 2 championships is enough. I also never said you can't criticize his strategic ability becuase he has won. Everyone is open to criticism. I just find it interesting that in his case you hold his exceptional recruiting against him when regards his strategic ability. So basically because he has so many NBA talents if he doesn't make the final four every year he can't coach? In 22 years he has nver had less than 19 wins and has been over 30 8 times. Again not to say that in itself makes him a great game coach, but how bad could he be? With Al we seem to have far more tangible evidence to point to regarding his game coaching (obviously we have a larger sampling on Al to base this on as well)

And I agree the difference between BC and UNC/Kansas has to be factored in if comparing Al and Roy, but I'm not trying to compare them since I don't think it's even close.

[twballgame9]

I'm liking Keno Davis more and more. But there's no denying his Big East failure this year. His team was better than how they played. Players like Marshon Brooks and Sharaud Curry and not to mention an NBA future star in Jamine Peterson shold've done better than 12-19. I smell a good recruiter-bad in game coach. That's why I like Bill Coen.

Good recruiter awful coach...hmm who does that remind me of?

Roy Williams?

Yes, that is certainly worthy of sarcasm. I mean, there is no reason to say a guy is a great recruiter and bad coach when he takes 7 MCDs All Americans to a glorious first round victory in the NIT.

I'm pretty sure you get a pass when you won the national championship last year, made the final four the year before, and made the elite 8 the year before that. This was the first time since 1989 that he didn't make the NCAA tournament, and the only reason he didn't make it the first year as a head coach was because the school was ineligible due to prior violations. On top of this, he has never lost in the NCAA tournament in the first round. That is 20 consecutive years of at least winning one game in the tournament.

Nice try though.

Yes, the fact that his NBA teams have had trouble losing college games has everything to do with how he calls plays and uses timeouts. He gets a pass for fucking up All Americans, but Al doesn't get a pass when you all don't think he has any talent?

I think his point was that this season was a fuck up for Roy Williams, but its one fuck up in a series of successful seasons most recently a national championship. When Al wins a national championship the next year I'll give him a pass if he pisses himself on the sidelines while losing to NJIT.

Just curious - what is it you are basing your contention that Roy Williams is a shitty coach? I know we have all witnessed Al sucking as a game coach up close and personal (flex offense, no adjustments, odd rotation, no timeouts etc). What is the basis for claiming Williams is a terrible game coach? I'm not saying your wrong by the way becuase I really don't know for sure, but it seems like everyone has opinions on these coaches and I wonder what they are based on. It's not like we see them in action enough to judge them as we do Al.

Seems to me results are the main thing and 2 National Championships and 7 final fours while winning 80% of your games is pretty good. We all know he can recruit, but he had an excellent recruiting class this year as you point out so if he didn't know how to coach wouldn't he have fucked up a 5 star recruiting class sometime in the last 22 years like he did this year?

So simply getting to the tournament is good enough for Roy Williams and not Al Skinner? Because this is not the first team Roy has fucked up, just the first team of All Americans that he has fucked up so bad that he missed the NCAAs entirely. Paul Pierce, Raef LaFrentz, Jacques Vaughn, Scot Pollard and the 1997 Kansas Jayhawks say hello. And that is hardly the only example. Roy Williams' Kansas teams were always the bracket favorites for early round exits.

I base my opinion of Roy Williams on two things: 1) watching him look clueless 10 times a year on TV (and once or twice live) and 2) the fact that he has had an average of just under 1.5 NBA players per season in his 22 years. That works out to almost 6 NBA players for any given 4 year period. Not that most of them stay for all four years, and only some of them were NBA stars, but you get the point.

No one disputes Roy Williams' ability to bring the talent in, although it ain't that difficult where he has coached. The guy got a premier job at Kansas by being a recruiting guru for his overrated mentor, and never came up through the ranks of smaller programs, earning his stripes. He has been able to survive on great recruiting.

Ask a UNC fan what they think of Roy's in-game coaching. You'll probably get an unfair answer this season, but they have always been critical of his ability to use the chalkboard.

End of the day, recruiting is part of his job and he gets credit for that. Running a good program and being a CEO is part of his job, and he gets credit for that. But saying you can't criticize his strategic ability because he has won a couple of national titles, while shitting on Al for not making the Final Four, ignores the grotesque talent discrepancy that has existed. Part of that is Al's failures in recruiting, part of it is that BC is not UNC. No excuses. But at UNC and Kansas, 2 National Titles in 22 years does not, by definition, make you a great Xs and Os guy.

I never said simply getting to the tourney was enough. 7 final fours and 2 championships is enough. I also never said you can't criticize his strategic ability becuase he has won. Everyone is open to criticism. I just find it interesting that in his case you hold his exceptional recruiting against him when regards his strategic ability. So basically because he has so many NBA talents if he doesn't make the final four every year he can't coach? In 22 years he has nver had less than 19 wins and has been over 30 8 times. Again not to say that in itself makes him a great game coach, but how bad could he be? With Al we seem to have far more tangible evidence to point to regarding his game coaching (obviously we have a larger sampling on Al to base this on as well)

And I agree the difference between BC and UNC/Kansas has to be factored in if comparing Al and Roy, but I'm not trying to compare them since I don't think it's even close.

I can't use his overwhelming talent against him as circumstantial evidence of him being a poor strategy guy, but you in turn can use results as circumstantial evidence that he must be a good strategy guy?

My contention is that if you let Roy Williams just recruit and run the program at UNC and Kansas for the past 22 years, and then on game day, just roll the balls out there and sit back, the programs would have been about the same. Not that he is not a winner - he does many things well. Xs and Os are not one of them, largely because he has not needed them much.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm liking Keno Davis more and more. But there's no denying his Big East failure this year. His team was better than how they played. Players like Marshon Brooks and Sharaud Curry and not to mention an NBA future star in Jamine Peterson shold've done better than 12-19. I smell a good recruiter-bad in game coach. That's why I like Bill Coen.

Good recruiter awful coach...hmm who does that remind me of?

Roy Williams?

Yes, that is certainly worthy of sarcasm. I mean, there is no reason to say a guy is a great recruiter and bad coach when he takes 7 MCDs All Americans to a glorious first round victory in the NIT.

I'm pretty sure you get a pass when you won the national championship last year, made the final four the year before, and made the elite 8 the year before that. This was the first time since 1989 that he didn't make the NCAA tournament, and the only reason he didn't make it the first year as a head coach was because the school was ineligible due to prior violations. On top of this, he has never lost in the NCAA tournament in the first round. That is 20 consecutive years of at least winning one game in the tournament.

Nice try though.

Yes, the fact that his NBA teams have had trouble losing college games has everything to do with how he calls plays and uses timeouts. He gets a pass for fucking up All Americans, but Al doesn't get a pass when you all don't think he has any talent?

I think his point was that this season was a fuck up for Roy Williams, but its one fuck up in a series of successful seasons most recently a national championship. When Al wins a national championship the next year I'll give him a pass if he pisses himself on the sidelines while losing to NJIT.

Just curious - what is it you are basing your contention that Roy Williams is a shitty coach? I know we have all witnessed Al sucking as a game coach up close and personal (flex offense, no adjustments, odd rotation, no timeouts etc). What is the basis for claiming Williams is a terrible game coach? I'm not saying your wrong by the way becuase I really don't know for sure, but it seems like everyone has opinions on these coaches and I wonder what they are based on. It's not like we see them in action enough to judge them as we do Al.

Seems to me results are the main thing and 2 National Championships and 7 final fours while winning 80% of your games is pretty good. We all know he can recruit, but he had an excellent recruiting class this year as you point out so if he didn't know how to coach wouldn't he have fucked up a 5 star recruiting class sometime in the last 22 years like he did this year?

So simply getting to the tournament is good enough for Roy Williams and not Al Skinner? Because this is not the first team Roy has fucked up, just the first team of All Americans that he has fucked up so bad that he missed the NCAAs entirely. Paul Pierce, Raef LaFrentz, Jacques Vaughn, Scot Pollard and the 1997 Kansas Jayhawks say hello. And that is hardly the only example. Roy Williams' Kansas teams were always the bracket favorites for early round exits.

I base my opinion of Roy Williams on two things: 1) watching him look clueless 10 times a year on TV (and once or twice live) and 2) the fact that he has had an average of just under 1.5 NBA players per season in his 22 years. That works out to almost 6 NBA players for any given 4 year period. Not that most of them stay for all four years, and only some of them were NBA stars, but you get the point.

No one disputes Roy Williams' ability to bring the talent in, although it ain't that difficult where he has coached. The guy got a premier job at Kansas by being a recruiting guru for his overrated mentor, and never came up through the ranks of smaller programs, earning his stripes. He has been able to survive on great recruiting.

Ask a UNC fan what they think of Roy's in-game coaching. You'll probably get an unfair answer this season, but they have always been critical of his ability to use the chalkboard.

End of the day, recruiting is part of his job and he gets credit for that. Running a good program and being a CEO is part of his job, and he gets credit for that. But saying you can't criticize his strategic ability because he has won a couple of national titles, while shitting on Al for not making the Final Four, ignores the grotesque talent discrepancy that has existed. Part of that is Al's failures in recruiting, part of it is that BC is not UNC. No excuses. But at UNC and Kansas, 2 National Titles in 22 years does not, by definition, make you a great Xs and Os guy.

I never said simply getting to the tourney was enough. 7 final fours and 2 championships is enough. I also never said you can't criticize his strategic ability becuase he has won. Everyone is open to criticism. I just find it interesting that in his case you hold his exceptional recruiting against him when regards his strategic ability. So basically because he has so many NBA talents if he doesn't make the final four every year he can't coach? In 22 years he has nver had less than 19 wins and has been over 30 8 times. Again not to say that in itself makes him a great game coach, but how bad could he be? With Al we seem to have far more tangible evidence to point to regarding his game coaching (obviously we have a larger sampling on Al to base this on as well)

And I agree the difference between BC and UNC/Kansas has to be factored in if comparing Al and Roy, but I'm not trying to compare them since I don't think it's even close.

I can't use his overwhelming talent against him as circumstantial evidence of him being a poor strategy guy, but you in turn can use results as circumstantial evidence that he must be a good strategy guy?

My contention is that if you let Roy Williams just recruit and run the program at UNC and Kansas for the past 22 years, and then on game day, just roll the balls out there and sit back, the programs would have been about the same. Not that he is not a winner - he does many things well. Xs and Os are not one of them, largely because he has not needed them much.

I don't think I used his talent as evidence he was a good strategy guy. In fact I don't think I even said he was a good strategy guy. I simply used his record to say with that much success how bad could he be. In my initial post I even stated I was not saying you were incorrect, I was just wondering what you were basing your contention on. I just don't think either you or I have enough information to make the statement that he is a good or bad strategist and that was really the point I was making.

[twballgame9]

Kansas and UNC are on television 10-15 times a year. I've probably seen Roy Williams coach 150 times in his career.

He earned his reputation as an underachiever at Kansas from 95-98. With one of the most talented squads in NCAA history over that 4 year span, he lost to a 4 as a 1 in 95, lost to a 4 as a 2 in 96, lost to a 4 as a 1 in 97, and lost to an 8 (URI) as a 1 in the round of 32 in 98. In many of those games, especially the 85-82 loss to the also overrated Lute Olsen in 97, he got thoroughly out coached.

[Art Vandelay]

Kansas and UNC are on television 10-15 times a year. I've probably seen Roy Williams coach 150 times in his career.

He earned his reputation as an underachiever at Kansas from 95-98. With one of the most talented squads in NCAA history over that 4 year span, he lost to a 4 as a 1 in 95, lost to a 4 as a 2 in 96, lost to a 4 as a 1 in 97, and lost to an 8 (URI) as a 1 in the round of 32 in 98. In many of those games, especially the 85-82 loss to the also overrated Lute Olsen in 97, he got thoroughly out coached.

Just out of curiousity is there any coach who has been successful who you don't consider overrated?

[b0mberMan]

I don't understand why people get all up in arms when teddy says that Roy isn't a good X and Os coach. That's the reputation I've heard from tons of people, UNC fans included.

He's not saying he doesn't do a lot of other stuff well. He certainly does. He's just not a chalkboard guy.

[twballgame9]

Kansas and UNC are on television 10-15 times a year. I've probably seen Roy Williams coach 150 times in his career.

He earned his reputation as an underachiever at Kansas from 95-98. With one of the most talented squads in NCAA history over that 4 year span, he lost to a 4 as a 1 in 95, lost to a 4 as a 2 in 96, lost to a 4 as a 1 in 97, and lost to an 8 (URI) as a 1 in the round of 32 in 98. In many of those games, especially the 85-82 loss to the also overrated Lute Olsen in 97, he got thoroughly out coached.

Just out of curiousity is there any coach who has been successful who you don't consider overrated?

Tons. But the point is not whether they are overrated overall, but overrated as basketball minds. Regardless, there are many great basketball minds in the game. Rick Pitino, Billy Donovan, Tom Izzo, Jamie Dixon, Jay Wright and Bill Self for example, although Self did not cover himself in glory this year and Wright's team really wasn't that good talent wise. Few is a GREAT coach. Some guys have their minds sitting next to them, like Boeheim and Calhoun.

[BCEagles25]

With all these new posts I thought maybe we landed a new recruit. Nope. Just more arguements about Roy Williams.

[claver2010]

25, you're a hoops weirdo. Since no one else knows anything about our 2011 recruits, do you?

I assume Skinner is pounding pavement

[BCEagles25]

I know they've offered Steele Davis and Rod Days, both SF prospects (Davis is a 6-8 PF depending on where you look.) Other than that I have absolutely no idea. The only pavement Al Skinner is pounding is the one on his basketball court in his backyard, of that much I'm certain.

[eepstein0]

I know they've offered Steele Davis and Rod Days, both SF prospects (Davis is a 6-8 PF depending on where you look.) Other than that I have absolutely no idea. The only pavement Al Skinner is pounding is the one on his basketball court in his backyard, of that much I'm certain.

Sounds good, we're going to have more SF on the basketball team than the Football team is going to have QB's.

[BCEagles25]

It'll be interesting to see how this whole Skinner thing impacts recruiting and our current commits.