Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby twballgame9 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:02 pm

hawaiirob {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
HustlinOwl {l Wrote}:TWB i wouldn't take one Celtic on my kids 9th grade AAU team.(maybe a couple)

If you don't appreciate Fisher, you don't know sports.


Derek Fisher stinks. He can only score because no one covers him because they are scared of Kobe (and rightfully so). How'd he do when he wasn't on the Lakers? Thanks in advance.


Not tipping your hat to Fisher's performance is lame. It was gritty and gutty. And not the first time he has come up big when big was needed. Should you also ask the question, "How did the Lakers do without Fisher?"


That's akin to saying that Nate Robinson would start for the Magis because he had one huge game against them. Derek Fisher profits from playing next to one of the greatest players ever. Without him, he is a marginal NBA player at best. He is a poor man's John Paxon.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby pick6pedro on Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:04 pm

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
hawaiirob {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
HustlinOwl {l Wrote}:TWB i wouldn't take one Celtic on my kids 9th grade AAU team.(maybe a couple)

If you don't appreciate Fisher, you don't know sports.


Derek Fisher stinks. He can only score because no one covers him because they are scared of Kobe (and rightfully so). How'd he do when he wasn't on the Lakers? Thanks in advance.


Not tipping your hat to Fisher's performance is lame. It was gritty and gutty. And not the first time he has come up big when big was needed. Should you also ask the question, "How did the Lakers do without Fisher?"


That's akin to saying that Nate Robinson would start for the Magis because he had one huge game against them. Derek Fisher profits from playing next to one of the greatest players ever. Without him, he is a marginal NBA player at best. He is a poor man's John Paxon.


He still made things happen down the stretch when it mattered - that is undeniable.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby twballgame9 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:11 pm

pick6pedro {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
hawaiirob {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
HustlinOwl {l Wrote}:TWB i wouldn't take one Celtic on my kids 9th grade AAU team.(maybe a couple)

If you don't appreciate Fisher, you don't know sports.


Derek Fisher stinks. He can only score because no one covers him because they are scared of Kobe (and rightfully so). How'd he do when he wasn't on the Lakers? Thanks in advance.


Not tipping your hat to Fisher's performance is lame. It was gritty and gutty. And not the first time he has come up big when big was needed. Should you also ask the question, "How did the Lakers do without Fisher?"


That's akin to saying that Nate Robinson would start for the Magis because he had one huge game against them. Derek Fisher profits from playing next to one of the greatest players ever. Without him, he is a marginal NBA player at best. He is a poor man's John Paxon.


He still made things happen down the stretch when it mattered - that is undeniable.


He's an NBA basketball player. He ought to be able to play a little bit.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby BCEagles25 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:12 pm

Derek Fisher is a solid PG, and is a starting PG on a champiship team. He doesn't rack up numbers, but he's a smart player.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby hawaiirob on Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:27 pm

If Fisher sucked, Kobe would be happy to tell you and the rest of us. As he has done with several teammates over his career. I could give you exhibits A-Z. Kobe is not bashful about bashing a guy. Instead, Kobe strokes the guy.

Last night was no flash in the pan for Fisher. The guy does something like this every playoffs. You don't start - and finish- on 4 - potentially 5- championship teams by sucking.

And Fisher the man is a great guy. You can't fake the emotion or sentiment in his post game interview. In a league with a ton of entitled jerks, Fisher is a legit good guy. No tats, no entourage, no inflated contract...just dedication and love for the game.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby twballgame9 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:37 pm

hawaiirob {l Wrote}:If Fisher sucked, Kobe would be happy to tell you and the rest of us. As he has done with several teammates over his career. I could give you exhibits A-Z. Kobe is not bashful about bashing a guy. Instead, Kobe strokes the guy.

Last night was no flash in the pan for Fisher. The guy does something like this every playoffs. You don't start - and finish- on 4 - potentially 5- championship teams by sucking.

And Fisher the man is a great guy. You can't fake the emotion or sentiment in his post game interview. In a league with a ton of entitled jerks, Fisher is a legit good guy. No tats, no entourage, no inflated contract...just dedication and love for the game.


I'm sure he is a nice guy. So are you. You wouldn't get playing time on the Celtics, either.

Using the fact that he started for championships as evidence of his ability is a fallacy when examining the NBA. Most good NBA teams are 2-3 super stars and 2-3 bums, largely because the superstars cost so much money. The nature of the game and the salary cap ensures that guys like Bill Wennington, Steve Kerr, Byron Russell, Bruce Bowen et al will be starting for championship teams. Kendrick Perkins says hello.

Fisher is a decent role player on a team with a Hall of Fame shooting guard. Nothing more.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby branchinator on Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:45 pm

If Derek Fisher didn't play for the Lakers, nobody would even know his name. If you play in that many playoff games, of course you're going to have your moment. Last night, he was very good and deserves credit. But he's still a little man's Robert Horry.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby hawaiirob on Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:05 pm

Fisher is far from a superstar. He is also far from a bum - or "sucks" status. The guy has been a rock solid role player with a 13 year career and a minimum of 4 game changing performances/game winning shots on the biggest stage in the world. You don't last 13 years in the NBA or compile a reputation as a clutch performer, with a resume to back it up, by sucking or even by being average.

I think you are also underestimating the "non-box score" component of his game. Kind of like a Louis Hinnant, his value is more for what you don't see in the box scores. Took me until Hinnant graduated to understand that about him. Fisher is a damn good glue guy. Again, you just don't last in the NBA for 13 years and be associated with championships and championship moments unless there is something very uncommon about you. Nobody is saying he is Scottie Pippen, Joe Dumars, Robert Parish, James Worthy good (legit 2 and 3 options on great teams). But he sure the hell aint, say, Howard Eisley - who was a non-descript 10 year NBA guy, or Terry Porter of Portland either. The man has rings and big time moments. You're not alone if Derek Fisher has ruined/hurt your title chances.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby branchinator on Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:11 pm

Serious question for Hawaiirob: do you think Derek Fisher would be allowed to clutch and grab as much as he does on defense if he weren't a member of the Lakers? If Fisher were on the Wizards and were pulling the crap he does, he'd foul out in 15 minutes every game.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby twballgame9 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:15 pm

I actually think Howard Eisley was a much better pro than Fisher. If Eisley had played with Kobe, instead of being stuck behind one of the 5 best PGs in history, he would have been a Paxon-like sidekick.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby branchinator on Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:28 pm

I also believe that Howard Eisley is the highest-grossing BC player in the NBA with career earnings around $37 million. This has nothing to do with the original point but I found it to be interesting. Dana Barros grossed around $25 million.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby hawaiirob on Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:42 pm

branchinator {l Wrote}:Serious question for Hawaiirob: do you think Derek Fisher would be allowed to clutch and grab as much as he does on defense if he weren't a member of the Lakers? If Fisher were on the Wizards and were pulling the crap he does, he'd foul out in 15 minutes every game.


I think the officiating in this series has been abysmal - for both sides. Celts have had Allen, Garnett, and Pierce in early trouble. The Lakers have had similar deals with Kobe, Odom, and Fisher. Missed calls and bad calls have hurt both sides. Good article below on the officiating, by the way.

Fisher gets away with a lot, but jeez, all these guys do. It actually looked like Fisher was fouled by Rondo on that left box leaner in the 4th. Lakers also got screwed on the reply that showed Rondo ripping Odom's hand off the ball. Off on Odom? Yes. But why was that?

At this point, it really looks like the Lakers have simply hit more big shots and that is why they are up 2-1. Not because of officiating or anything else. Game 2, the C's hit more big shots. They won. Both teams are getting hacked, both coaches are complaining.

But the Lakes have simply hit more shots. And they have the best player on the floor. Celtic fans have to be concerned that Kobe has not yet single handily won one game in this series - yet. It will happen, as it always does. He will hit for 37, 10 rbs, and 8 ass and rip out your hearts. Fisher getting one is a given (that one is over). Now you have to wait for Kobe to deliver his. The wild card will be if Gasol has his signature break out game - which he's yet to have as a pro. He is excellent and you'd think he may have one in him. I think Pierce will have a rough time erupting against Artest. But Rondo will deliver another win. We've seen Garnett's best last night. He will not win you a game. Allen got Game 2. I predict Rondo will win a game by himself. But Lakes in 6.

By the way, I've been impressed with Big Baby. He has a place in the Association. Even if he is apparently a legit baby maturity wise.

Like anybody else from BC '95, I love Howard Eisley. But I disagree that he had a better career than Fisher or was better at any aspect of the game.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... ?eref=sihp
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby twballgame9 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:57 pm

Howard Eisley was most certainly a better shooter than Fisher. I find this undebateable.

The officiating has been bad for both teams.

I think the Celtics are more likely to win a game than lose when Kobe goes off. When Kobe starts ball hogging, the Lakers aren't very good.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby BCEagle74 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:05 pm

Once again, there is only one genius here and one Daddy who owns you.

The humble humble humble one always ahead of the sports analysis, political, economic, national debt impact, sex, faith, religion and everything know to mankind curve of knowledge and wisdom.....


BCEagle74 {l Wrote}:Why do you think I said in October 2009 --- I set my DVR for the last 2 minutes of Game 7?

The replay rule flaw--Rondo fouled Odom...

and that moving screen call on Garnett would never be called in 1960-1990.

They call that on Bill Russell in the 1960's..Russell eats the ref right there
.


Rivers complains about officiating
BOSTON -- Doc Rivers spent quite a bit of time Wednesday discussing the state of the officiating in the NBA Finals after sending a videotape to the league office documenting what he said were several uncalled offensive fouls against the Los Angeles Lakers. It may have been an off day Wednesday in the L.A.-Boston series, but Rivers was very much on his game when it came to working the refs.

"I think it was a ton of moving screens they got away with," Rivers said the day after the Celtics' 91-84 loss to the Lakers in Game 3 put the Celtics behind 2-1 in the best-of-7 series. "As far as off-the-ball action ... you are not allowed to hold, you are not allowed to bump, and you are not allowed to impede progress. I read that this morning, and I'm positive of it. So, you know, when that happens it has to be called."

Rivers said he had sent a tape to the league office documenting several instances in which the Lakers were not called for moving screen violations, a type of offensive foul. By his count, the Celtics were called for one such violation and the Lakers none.
Rivers also commented on the general state of officiating in the NBA and how it differs from when he was a player. Although it did not appear as though he had said anything egregious enough to merit a fine from the league office, commissioner David Stern will have the final say on that matter -- and Stern has shown less tolerance than in past years for coaches working the refs in between games.

Rivers also continued to sound incredulous that Lakers coach Phil Jackson had complained about the foul calls against Kobe Bryant in Game 2 (Jackson called them "unusual fouls") when Bryant racked up five personals, noting that foul trouble had impacted his own team much more than it had the Lakers.

"I think he [Phil Jackson] is good, I think we're all pretty good at it," Rivers said. "But listen, if Phil Jackson says something the day before and it happens, I hope that has nothing to do with the officials."

In Game 3, Paul Pierce was limited to 34 minutes because of foul trouble. In Game 2 it was Kevin Garnett who spent more than half the game watching from the bench because of fouls, and in Game 1 Ray Allen was the recipient of at least two questionable foul calls that limited him to 27 minutes.

"It's huge," Rivers said. "We've had all three games where one of our quote-unquote Big Three has not been able to play.

"Last night, Paul was never in his rhythm. He couldn't be. He played for four minutes, he was back on the bench, played for five minutes. I mean, I played Paul at times last night when I should not have had him on the floor with four fouls, but I had no choice. You've got to get him on the floor at some point.

"But it clearly -- you know, we watched film today, and I showed Paul, it's funny. I said 'Paul, that's a driving lane. You've got to get to the basket.' His response was: 'I was worried about getting another foul.' It's tough to play that way." Through three games, the Celtics have been whistled for 84 personal fouls to the Lakers' 75. Pierce and Kevin Garnett have been whistled for 13 fouls apiece, while Lamar Odom of the Lakers leads all players with 14 personals. Odom has played an average of just 21 minutes per game after averaging nearly 30 minutes over the first three rounds of the postseason.

The Lakers have attempted 96 free throws in the three games to Boston's 86, and there has generally been an inordinate amount of conversation over the past six days regarding the quality of the refereeing.

"When I played, it was just two officials, so that was a while ago," Rivers said. "And I also thought back then it was more they just called the game, what they saw. Now, it's much more technical and in some ways better, and in some ways not, because officials won't call something that's not in their area, if you know what I mean, even if they see it at times.

"But it's tough. I think the game is more athletic, the game is faster, and it's brutal. We're hard on them, everybody is hard on them. But it's a difficult game to call," Rivers said. "I think what we all want is just consistency. It's tough to get that, but I think that's what everybody wants."

Chris Sheridan covers the NBA for ESPN.com.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby branchinator on Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:30 pm

I agree that officiating has been bad on both sides..but the Lakers have gotten more calls than the Celtics. In Game 2, before the Lakers had to foul, they had 39 FT attempts to Boston's 16. Give the Celtics that kind of FT advantage and they would destroy the Lakers. Last night, the officiating was pretty evenly awful so I didn't have a problem with it. The Lakers didn't win because of the refs, they won because Fisher made a ton of clutch shots.

With all that said, the ticky tack nature of the officiating in this series clearly favors the Lakers, which is why Jackson made a point before the series to say that LA was a "finesse" team. He knows his team can't beat the Celtics if the refs swallow the whistles. Fortunately for him, they're calling every little bump, slap, etc. As a Celtics fan, I could stomach a Lakers series win if the refs just let the players play and not call all this BS. But they're not and it's ruining the series.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby pick6pedro on Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:45 pm

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
pick6pedro {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
hawaiirob {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
HustlinOwl {l Wrote}:TWB i wouldn't take one Celtic on my kids 9th grade AAU team.(maybe a couple)

If you don't appreciate Fisher, you don't know sports.


Derek Fisher stinks. He can only score because no one covers him because they are scared of Kobe (and rightfully so). How'd he do when he wasn't on the Lakers? Thanks in advance.


Not tipping your hat to Fisher's performance is lame. It was gritty and gutty. And not the first time he has come up big when big was needed. Should you also ask the question, "How did the Lakers do without Fisher?"


That's akin to saying that Nate Robinson would start for the Magis because he had one huge game against them. Derek Fisher profits from playing next to one of the greatest players ever. Without him, he is a marginal NBA player at best. He is a poor man's John Paxon.


He still made things happen down the stretch when it mattered - that is undeniable.


He's an NBA basketball player. He ought to be able to play a little bit.


Sure, but a guy who stinks shouldn't be able to do it in the NBA Finals multiple times.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby Eagledom on Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:18 pm

OldEaglePub {l Wrote}:Celtics +120 to win the Championship. The odds were +160 before the series started.

I wonder why the adjustment in odds hasn't been more significant!!!!

1. Boston has home court advantage.

2. Boston has been good on the road going 6-4 in the playoffs and 32 - 19 including the regular season. Odds are firmly stacked against Lakers winning both Game 6 and 7 in LA.

In my mind, these odds imply consensus favors Lakers to win 2 out of 3 in Boston. I don't believe that happens.

Celtics win Championship.


I hope you don't bet a lot. Lakers up 2-1 now. Hmmm. I wonder why they were still favorites after the first two games?
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby twballgame9 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:19 pm

Eagledom {l Wrote}:
OldEaglePub {l Wrote}:Celtics +120 to win the Championship. The odds were +160 before the series started.

I wonder why the adjustment in odds hasn't been more significant!!!!

1. Boston has home court advantage.

2. Boston has been good on the road going 6-4 in the playoffs and 32 - 19 including the regular season. Odds are firmly stacked against Lakers winning both Game 6 and 7 in LA.

In my mind, these odds imply consensus favors Lakers to win 2 out of 3 in Boston. I don't believe that happens.

Celtics win Championship.


I hope you don't bet a lot. Lakers up 2-1 now. Hmmm. I wonder why they were still favorites after the first two games?


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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby OldEaglePub on Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:40 pm

Eagledom {l Wrote}:
OldEaglePub {l Wrote}:Celtics +120 to win the Championship. The odds were +160 before the series started.

I wonder why the adjustment in odds hasn't been more significant!!!!

1. Boston has home court advantage.

2. Boston has been good on the road going 6-4 in the playoffs and 32 - 19 including the regular season. Odds are firmly stacked against Lakers winning both Game 6 and 7 in LA.

In my mind, these odds imply consensus favors Lakers to win 2 out of 3 in Boston. I don't believe that happens.

Celtics win Championship.


I hope you don't bet a lot. Lakers up 2-1 now. Hmmm. I wonder why they were still favorites after the first two games?


Yep, consensus was pricing in Ray going 0-13 and officials taking care of the rest. I am sure you had it all figured out. That's what I like most about you.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby Eagledom on Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:30 pm

OldEaglePub {l Wrote}:
Eagledom {l Wrote}:
OldEaglePub {l Wrote}:Celtics +120 to win the Championship. The odds were +160 before the series started.

I wonder why the adjustment in odds hasn't been more significant!!!!

1. Boston has home court advantage.

2. Boston has been good on the road going 6-4 in the playoffs and 32 - 19 including the regular season. Odds are firmly stacked against Lakers winning both Game 6 and 7 in LA.

In my mind, these odds imply consensus favors Lakers to win 2 out of 3 in Boston. I don't believe that happens.

Celtics win Championship.


I hope you don't bet a lot. Lakers up 2-1 now. Hmmm. I wonder why they were still favorites after the first two games?


Yep, consensus was pricing in Ray going 0-13 and officials taking care of the rest. I am sure you had it all figured out. That's what I like most about you.



i guess I just understand that sports odds are not the same as coin flips.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby OldEaglePub on Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:41 pm

Eagledom {l Wrote}:

i guess I just understand that sports odds are not the same as coin flips.



Of course you do. With that slow and thick brain of yours.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby OldEaglePub on Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:05 pm

In the meantime, I am trying to figure out what this re-injuring of the knee means to Bynum and the Lakers. It could be a series changer if it is real.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby branchinator on Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:21 am

OldEaglePub {l Wrote}:In the meantime, I am trying to figure out what this re-injuring of the knee means to Bynum and the Lakers. It could be a series changer if it is real.


It could mean a lot. Bynum and Gasol are nearly impossible to score on consistently. Gasol and Odom would be a lot easier, as the Celtics found out in 2008.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby BCEagles25 on Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:21 pm

Odom and Bynum have two completely different skill sets. So yeah, that'd be huge.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby OldEaglePub on Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:09 pm

He is hurting this morning. If it is even close to real, he either misses considerable minutes tonight or he ends up being much less effective.

I still think we take the next two games. If conspiracy theorists are right, we may also be due for critical ref support tonight. Basically, tonight's game should be in the bag.

We will see.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby OldEaglePub on Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:30 pm

I love Baby Davis. In the meantime, Bynum's injury appears to be real. Hoping the Celtics can close. Tonight, Rondo forgot to show up.
Last edited by OldEaglePub on Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby OldEaglePub on Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:45 pm

It was one of the ugliest wins I have ever seen. Disastrous first three quarters on offense. Great defense throughout.

The key fact is that the absence of Bynum is ultimately fatal to the Lakers.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby OldEaglePub on Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:07 pm

Celtics now at -115 to win Championship, Lakers at -105. Indeed, consensus was favoring Lakers taking 2 out of 3 in Boston after Game 2. I think Celtics are good value at these levels knowing that Bynum is practically a no-factor in this series.
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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby BCEagle74 on Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:13 pm

BCEagle74 {l Wrote}:If Boston wins 2-3 and goes up 3 games to 2

....The Lakers will be favored by 8 in Game 6 and by 6 in game 7.

You guys are not right.

Miss Cleo is on the other line please hold...


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Re: Somehow, Vegas still sees the Lakers as favorite in this one

Postby EagleDave on Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:16 pm

For the record '74, you've also picked the Lakers to win all 6 games in this series. When you pick both teams to win, it's hard to lose.
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Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:09 am
Location: Bridgewater, MA
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