Greatest NBA player ever?

[twballgame9]

I think KAJ is at least top 15...Not quite sure how KG and his 19/11 for his career is on that list, even with a ring and the defender that he is.

Leave it to the stat geeks to fuck shit up. Let's put Bernard King on there with Dominique Wilkins.

Point scorers don't mean much to me. Kareem called by the way. He wanted to thank Oscar Robertson, Magic and Worthy for his rings and 3 MVPs. He also wanted to thank you for ignoring that in the three MVP seasons when he didn't play with one of those guys, his teams either missed the playoffs or checked out early. In one of those years, Bill Walton owned him in a 4-game sweep. Bet Lew got his points though.

tdw, a ton of your "best player" talk hinges on team success. I'm feeling some disconnect here...

Kareem was the second, and sometimes third, best player on his own team whenever his team had success. When he was the best player on his team, his teams weren't that good.

And yes, best player is tied in many cases to team success. Great players, certainly top 20 players, elevate teams. For example, Magic instantly elevated Lew's mediocre teams to 5-time champions. Robertson immediately made Lew's mediocre Bucks team a champion. Bird was the author of one of the greatest turnarounds in history.

Guys like McHale, David Robinson, James Worthy, Tommy Heinson, Scotty Pippen, Clyde Drexler - all great players, and probably top 50-100, but sidekicks all. Other top 100 guys like Bernard King, Dominique Wilkins - flashy, high scoring players on bad teams - didn't elevate the play of those around them. Lew could fall in both categories.

[commavegarage]

flashy, high scoring players on bad teams - didn't elevate the play of those around them.

Sounds like KG. Check out his time on the TWolves.

[BCEagle74]

7. West ---1 -- -Played versus superb Celtic teams that were 3+ players deeper.
6. Wilt -- 2 -- If not for West..The LOGO --all around player and leader.
1. Jordan -- 5 -- NBA was diluted.
2. Russell -- 3 -- Could not score like Wilt and Wilt played defense too, but with bad ballclubs and midgets.
5. Robertson -- 4 -- Triple Double Nightly when it was never called that.
3. Magic -- 6 -- Had great supporting players and Kareem--where in Lew Alcindor?
***KAREEM< ABDUL JABBAR*** -- 7TH SLOT
16. Kobe -- 8 -- Will go higher in 4 years.
18. Dr. J -- 9 --- Bad teams too..
4. Bird --- 10 -- Not a great defender.

15. Hondo -- 11 --Most underrated player in NBA history.
8. Baylor --- 14 --- Not much of defender

Insert>>>>>BELOW NAMES>>



9. Cousy --15 --- he had the team
10. Olajuwon -- 12 --Warrior 2 titles on his back
11. Shaq -- 13 -- No Kobe and great teams -- he was no Russell.
12. Stockton -- 18 --Solid career.
13. Thomas -- 14 -- Solid 2 titles but an asshole.
14. Barkley --20 ---no defense
17. Garnett -- 19 -- May move up.
19. Maravich --21-- Bad bad teams.
20. Duncan -- 16 -- 3 titles in like Jordan--diluted NBA.

Moses Malone...Karl Malone..Dave Bing..Rick Barry..Scottie Pippen..

FIXED!

This may need some tweaking but it is solid.

I will take the next 10 with Red Auerbach as Head Coach and win 10-10![/quote]


KOBE GETS 5th ring or not he may be number 6. This guy can shoot the clucth 3 ball better than anyone ever.

[twballgame9]

flashy, high scoring players on bad teams - didn't elevate the play of those around them.

Sounds like KG. Check out his time on the TWolves.

Played in the Finals with the T-Wolves. Second best player on the team was Latrell Sprewell. Name one other player on the team.

Thanks in advance.

[b0mberMan]

flashy, high scoring players on bad teams - didn't elevate the play of those around them.

Sounds like KG. Check out his time on the TWolves.

Played in the Finals with the T-Wolves. Second best player on the team was Latrell Sprewell. Name one other player on the team.

Thanks in advance.

[twballgame9]

flashy, high scoring players on bad teams - didn't elevate the play of those around them.

Sounds like KG. Check out his time on the TWolves.

Played in the Finals with the T-Wolves. Second best player on the team was Latrell Sprewell. Name one other player on the team.

Thanks in advance.

Love that guy. Second ugliest athlete in history after Willie McGee.

[pick6pedro]

flashy, high scoring players on bad teams - didn't elevate the play of those around them.

Sounds like KG. Check out his time on the TWolves.

Played in the Finals with the T-Wolves. Second best player on the team was Latrell Sprewell. Name one other player on the team.

Thanks in advance.

[b0mberMan]

We're actually both wrong. It was The Mayor:

[twballgame9]

Fred Hoiberg started at PG with Hudson and Cassell hurt in the Western Conference finals. Add in Ervin Johnson (no, not Magic), Spree, Darrick Martin and Michael Olawokandi.

[b0mberMan]

Fred Hoiberg started at PG with Hudson and Cassell hurt in the Western Conference finals. Add in Ervin Johnson (no, not Magic), Spree, Darrick Martin and Michael Olawokandi.

That team oozed talent.

[twballgame9]

Back to Garnett being an all around player:

Only player in NBA history to:

average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists per game for 6 consecutive seasons. (1999–2005)
average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 4 assists per game for 9 consecutive seasons. (1998–2007)

reach at least 20,000 points, 11,000 rebounds, 4,000 assists, 1,200 steals, and 1,500 blocks in his playing career.


Further on the defense, he scored all those points while being:

10-time All-Defensive Team:

First Team: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2009
Second Team: 2006, 2007

[angrychicken]

[commavegarage]

flashy, high scoring players on bad teams - didn't elevate the play of those around them.

Sounds like KG. Check out his time on the TWolves.

Played in the Finals with the T-Wolves. Second best player on the team was Latrell Sprewell. Name one other player on the team.

Thanks in advance.

No he didn't. The Minnesota Timberwolves have never made the NBA Finals. Nice try though.

[commavegarage]

Back to Garnett being an all around player:

Only player in NBA history to:

average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists per game for 6 consecutive seasons. (1999–2005)
average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 4 assists per game for 9 consecutive seasons. (1998–2007)

reach at least 20,000 points, 11,000 rebounds, 4,000 assists, 1,200 steals, and 1,500 blocks in his playing career.

And you call him a top 20 player of all time. Yet according to you someone who achieved at least 24,000 points, 11,600 rebounds, 2200 assists, 1100 steals, and 2800 blocks shouldn't even be in the discussion. Logical.

[bignick33]

Kareem was the second, and sometimes third, best player on his own team whenever his team had success. When he was the best player on his team, his teams weren't that good.

Except for the 2 times that he won the MVP and the NBA Championship in the year. LOL

[twballgame9]

flashy, high scoring players on bad teams - didn't elevate the play of those around them.

Sounds like KG. Check out his time on the TWolves.

Played in the Finals with the T-Wolves. Second best player on the team was Latrell Sprewell. Name one other player on the team.

Thanks in advance.

No he didn't. The Minnesota Timberwolves have never made the NBA Finals. Nice try though.

Did I say NBA Finals? He played in the Western Conference Finals against the Lakers. Nice try though.

The Lord says shut the fuck up and answer the fucking question.

[twballgame9]

Back to Garnett being an all around player:

Only player in NBA history to:

average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists per game for 6 consecutive seasons. (1999–2005)
average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 4 assists per game for 9 consecutive seasons. (1998–2007)

reach at least 20,000 points, 11,000 rebounds, 4,000 assists, 1,200 steals, and 1,500 blocks in his playing career.

And you call him a top 20 player of all time. Yet according to you someone who achieved at least 24,000 points, 11,600 rebounds, 2200 assists, 1100 steals, and 2800 blocks shouldn't even be in the discussion. Logical.

I didn't say he wasn't in the discussion, Mr. Argumentative, just like I didn't say he was comparable to Ewing. He's not, however, on the list, which is mine by the way. Make your own list if you don't like it.

Kareem - 22 seasons.

Garnett - 15 seasons and counting.

Oh, and Garnett wasn't 8 feet taller than everyone else.

[twballgame9]

Kareem was the second, and sometimes third, best player on his own team whenever his team had success. When he was the best player on his team, his teams weren't that good.

Except for the 2 times that he won the MVP and the NBA Championship in the year. LOL

And played with Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson. Are you seriously espousing MVP voting as determinative of who the best player is? Like I said, MVP and second best player on his own team. Like when Walter Berry won national player of the year on a team with Marc Jackson and Chris Mullin.

[bignick33]

Kareem was the second, and sometimes third, best player on his own team whenever his team had success. When he was the best player on his team, his teams weren't that good.

Except for the 2 times that he won the MVP and the NBA Championship in the year. LOL

And played with Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson. Are you seriously espousing MVP voting as determinative of who the best player is? Like I said, MVP and second best player on his own team. Like when Walter Berry won national player of the year on a team with Marc Jackson and Chris Mullin.

Kareem was better than Oscar and better than Magic as a rookie (career-wise, I stated that Magic and Kareem are comparable in the the beginning of this thread). Your repeated assertions that he wasn't the best player on his team during any of his five championships are unequivocally incorrect.

Regarding your question, six-time MVP (and two-time Finals MVP) is generally the best player on his team.

If neither stats nor championships nor postseason voting are indicative of a player's greatness, I don't know what is. Perhaps we need some sort of "stubbornness" emoticon called the "TWB".

[commavegarage]

flashy, high scoring players on bad teams - didn't elevate the play of those around them.

Sounds like KG. Check out his time on the TWolves.

Played in the Finals with the T-Wolves. Second best player on the team was Latrell Sprewell. Name one other player on the team.

Thanks in advance.

No he didn't. The Minnesota Timberwolves have never made the NBA Finals. Nice try though.

Did I say NBA Finals? He played in the Western Conference Finals against the Lakers. Nice try though.

The Lord says shut the fuck up and answer the fucking question.

Are you fucking kidding me. When somebody refers to the finals they mean the finals. You are retarded.

[commavegarage]

Back to Garnett being an all around player:

Only player in NBA history to:

average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists per game for 6 consecutive seasons. (1999–2005)
average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 4 assists per game for 9 consecutive seasons. (1998–2007)

reach at least 20,000 points, 11,000 rebounds, 4,000 assists, 1,200 steals, and 1,500 blocks in his playing career.

And you call him a top 20 player of all time. Yet according to you someone who achieved at least 24,000 points, 11,600 rebounds, 2200 assists, 1100 steals, and 2800 blocks shouldn't even be in the discussion. Logical.

I didn't say he wasn't in the discussion, Mr. Argumentative, just like I didn't say he was comparable to Ewing. He's not, however, on the list, which is mine by the way. Make your own list if you don't like it.

Kareem - 22 seasons.

Garnett - 15 seasons and counting.

Oh, and Garnett wasn't 8 feet taller than everyone else.

These aren't Kareem's stats.

[angryty]

I am not interested enough in this topic to go through every post but can we please put to rest the notion that Russell was equal to Chamberlain? if you put Wilt on the Celtics they win just as much, if not more. And the poster who said that Russell "dominated" Chamberlain doesn't know what he is talking about. As Russell himself noted, Chamberlain averaged a 40/20 against him for his playoff career.

Russell was a great player who was surrounded by the single greatest collection of talent in NBA history. Chamberlain was a superior player who had almost no talent around him until the very end of his career. He also had the misfortune to play for his entire prime for a nearly broke franchise in Philadelphia and despite this, he lead them to the single most dominant championship season in NBA history. Anyone who would take Russell over Chamberlain is an idiot or a Bostonian (and really, there is little difference between those two categories).

As for Jordan, the point that he played in a more rugged defensive era is without merit. Every other player in that era played under that handicap, Jordan, on the other hand, during his championship prime, played under a star system that went to ridiculous lengths to protect him and put him on the foul line in a way that never existed for any previous star (or subsequent star for that matter). Jordan also benefited from playing during one of the worst periods in NBA history from the perspective of league wide talent. All one really needs to know about the Jordan era is that the Magic-Bird era Milwaukee Bucks, who never sniffed a finals, would have destroyed Jordan's Bulls with Moncreif and Johnson doing enough against Jordan and Pippen to keep it close, Jack Sitkma neutralizing Ho Grant and Bob Lanier averaging around 40/20 against the collection of stiffs who played in the post for the Bulls (as well as a bench of Alton Lister, Paul Pressey, Dave Cowens, Phil Ford, and Paul Mokeski that was superior to anything Jordan had in that regard). Jordan's ostensible rivals of that era, the NY Knicks, consisted of the most overrated player in NBA history (Ewing), a CBA refugee (John Starks), a one dimensional PF (Oakley), the corpses of two senior citizen guards (Harper and Blackmon) who were way past their primes and various detrious that one could find floating in a septic tank (Charles Smith, et al.). Also, lest anyone forget, Jordan only won his 1st NBA title because Magic got hurt after destroying the Bulls in game 1.

[twballgame9]

Back to Garnett being an all around player:

Only player in NBA history to:

average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists per game for 6 consecutive seasons. (1999–2005)
average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 4 assists per game for 9 consecutive seasons. (1998–2007)

reach at least 20,000 points, 11,000 rebounds, 4,000 assists, 1,200 steals, and 1,500 blocks in his playing career.

And you call him a top 20 player of all time. Yet according to you someone who achieved at least 24,000 points, 11,600 rebounds, 2200 assists, 1100 steals, and 2800 blocks shouldn't even be in the discussion. Logical.

I didn't say he wasn't in the discussion, Mr. Argumentative, just like I didn't say he was comparable to Ewing. He's not, however, on the list, which is mine by the way. Make your own list if you don't like it.

Kareem - 22 seasons.

Garnett - 15 seasons and counting.

Oh, and Garnett wasn't 8 feet taller than everyone else.

These aren't Kareem's stats.

Boring. Make an argument. Save the pompous back slapping quiz show douchy stat competitions for Pedro.

[BC '00]

As for Jordan, the point that he played in a more rugged defensive era is without merit. Every other player in that era played under that handicap, Jordan, on the other hand, during his championship prime, played under a star system that went to ridiculous lengths to protect him and put him on the foul line in a way that never existed for any previous star (or subsequent star for that matter).

I almost slapped myself for agreeing with Ty. One point that should be made is the contrast between the NBA widening the lane because Wilt was so dominant and the league bending over backwards to promote Michael Jordan. I am not sure which of the two was actually the Greatest of All Time, but it is at least up for debate in my opinion.

[twballgame9]

I am not interested enough in this topic to go through every post but can we please put to rest the notion that Russell was equal to Chamberlain? if you put Wilt on the Celtics they win just as much, if not more. And the poster who said that Russell "dominated" Chamberlain doesn't know what he is talking about. As Russell himself noted, Chamberlain averaged a 40/20 against him for his playoff career.

Russell was a great player who was surrounded by the single greatest collection of talent in NBA history. Chamberlain was a superior player who had almost no talent around him until the very end of his career. He also had the misfortune to play for his entire prime for a nearly broke franchise in Philadelphia and despite this, he lead them to the single most dominant championship season in NBA history. Anyone who would take Russell over Chamberlain is an idiot or a Bostonian (and really, there is little difference between those two categories).

As for Jordan, the point that he played in a more rugged defensive era is without merit. Every other player in that era played under that handicap, Jordan, on the other hand, during his championship prime, played under a star system that went to ridiculous lengths to protect him and put him on the foul line in a way that never existed for any previous star (or subsequent star for that matter). Jordan also benefited from playing during one of the worst periods in NBA history from the perspective of league wide talent. All one really needs to know about the Jordan era is that the Magic-Bird era Milwaukee Bucks, who never sniffed a finals, would have destroyed Jordan's Bulls with Moncreif and Johnson doing enough against Jordan and Pippen to keep it close, Jack Sitkma neutralizing Ho Grant and Bob Lanier averaging around 40/20 against the collection of stiffs who played in the post for the Bulls (as well as a bench of Alton Lister, Paul Pressey, Dave Cowens, Phil Ford, and Paul Mokeski that was superior to anything Jordan had in that regard). Jordan's ostensible rivals of that era, the NY Knicks, consisted of the most overrated player in NBA history (Ewing), a CBA refugee (John Starks), a one dimensional PF (Oakley), the corpses of two senior citizen guards (Harper and Blackmon) who were way past their primes and various detrious that one could find floating in a septic tank (Charles Smith, et al.). Also, lest anyone forget, Jordan only won his 1st NBA title because Magic got hurt after destroying the Bulls in game 1.

I am not buying the Russell Wilt argument. Wilt is like Bernard King - it wouldn't matter what team he was on, he'd score all the points and his team would be bad.

Wilt is certaily top 5-8, but he was no Russell. Russell made his team better. He rebounded as well as Wilt, despite being 5 inches shorter, played better defense, and was the catalyst for the most dynamic fast break offense ever. Wilt was a much better offensive player (which is all that anyone focuses on here), but sometimes to the detriment of his team. Not sure it would have made any sense to put a team of great players around Wilt.

[Eagledom]

As for Jordan, the point that he played in a more rugged defensive era is without merit. Every other player in that era played under that handicap, Jordan, on the other hand, during his championship prime, played under a star system that went to ridiculous lengths to protect him and put him on the foul line in a way that never existed for any previous star (or subsequent star for that matter).

I almost slapped myself for agreeing with Ty. One point that should be made is the contrast between the NBA widening the lane because Wilt was so dominant and the league bending over backwards to promote Michael Jordan. I am not sure which of the two was actually the Greatest of All Time, but it is at least up for debate in my opinion.

A. The lakers beat the Bulls by 1 or 2 in Game 1...not sure where anyone got the idea that they "destroyed" the Bulls in Game 1
B. The reason the bulls won the series is simply because they were a better team...not sure what this b.s. "injury" to Magic had to do with anything...unless "injury" is another term for putting Pippen on him starting in game 2.

The notion that Jordan was overrated is retarded.

[angryty]

Magic dominated Jordan in game one, he also severely sprained his ankle and was a non-factor for the rest of theseries. It had nothing to do with Pippen, who was ineffectual in Game 1. You know, it figures a douchey PM at Fannie Mae would be a Jordan worshipper.

[pick6pedro]

Boring. Make an argument. Save the pompous back slapping quiz show douchy stat competitions for Pedro.

I gotta get me a dish so I can watch these crazy Japanese game shows!

[eaglesmith]

I am not interested enough in this topic to go through every post but can we please put to rest the notion that Russell was equal to Chamberlain? if you put Wilt on the Celtics they win just as much, if not more. And the poster who said that Russell "dominated" Chamberlain doesn't know what he is talking about. As Russell himself noted, Chamberlain averaged a 40/20 against him for his playoff career.

Russell was a great player who was surrounded by the single greatest collection of talent in NBA history. Chamberlain was a superior player who had almost no talent around him until the very end of his career. He also had the misfortune to play for his entire prime for a nearly broke franchise in Philadelphia and despite this, he lead them to the single most dominant championship season in NBA history. Anyone who would take Russell over Chamberlain is an idiot or a Bostonian (and really, there is little difference between those two categories).

As for Jordan, the point that he played in a more rugged defensive era is without merit. Every other player in that era played under that handicap, Jordan, on the other hand, during his championship prime, played under a star system that went to ridiculous lengths to protect him and put him on the foul line in a way that never existed for any previous star (or subsequent star for that matter). Jordan also benefited from playing during one of the worst periods in NBA history from the perspective of league wide talent. All one really needs to know about the Jordan era is that the Magic-Bird era Milwaukee Bucks, who never sniffed a finals, would have destroyed Jordan's Bulls with Moncreif and Johnson doing enough against Jordan and Pippen to keep it close, Jack Sitkma neutralizing Ho Grant and Bob Lanier averaging around 40/20 against the collection of stiffs who played in the post for the Bulls (as well as a bench of Alton Lister, Paul Pressey, Dave Cowens, Phil Ford, and Paul Mokeski that was superior to anything Jordan had in that regard). Jordan's ostensible rivals of that era, the NY Knicks, consisted of the most overrated player in NBA history (Ewing), a CBA refugee (John Starks), a one dimensional PF (Oakley), the corpses of two senior citizen guards (Harper and Blackmon) who were way past their primes and various detrious that one could find floating in a septic tank (Charles Smith, et al.). Also, lest anyone forget, Jordan only won his 1st NBA title because Magic got hurt after destroying the Bulls in game 1.

Dwanye Wade in the 2006 finals disagrees with you. Granted, the star system eventually granted Jordan a lot of leeway, especially in 1995-98, but Bird and Johnson got those calls too, and the curse of it continues today. Take a look at Pierce, Duncan, Kobe, and numerous other NBA stars who react as if they were accused of murder any time they're called for a foul. Nobody thinks they fouled anyone anymore.

Additionally, the Pistons and Knicks beat the crap out of the Bulls (recall Pippen getting bodyslammed in the 1990 Eastern Finals against Detroit. There was an entire book called "Jordan Rules" all about how the Pistons' game plan was to throw Jordan to the floor as much as humanly possible. Superstars today get protected far more than 20 years ago and the league generally plays a much less physical brand of basketball. After the 1997-2000 Knicks-Heat abortion playoff serieses and the Pistons-Pacers brawl in 2004, the NBA decided to kill physical play.

[twballgame9]

Boring. Make an argument. Save the pompous back slapping quiz show douchy stat competitions for Pedro.

I gotta get me a dish so I can watch these crazy Japanese game shows!

I was hoping to lure you into the "guess whose stats these are" competition so that I could get back to the legit argument over whether Kareem was anything more than a sidekick for Magic and The Big O.