Greatest NBA player ever?

[twballgame9]

So what's your argument? That Ewing missed arguably the most important shot in his career and for that he shouldn't be considered?

And what will Garnett be remembered for...needing two perennial allstars and a great young PG to finally win or that anything is possible gay shit?

KG is a hundred times better defensively than Ewing was. KG makes his teammates better with his attitude (see Celtics team defensive turnaround). This is the epitome of leadership. Ewing didn't make his teammates better because he was quiet (and out of shape by end of his career). They are even offensively. KG is the better passer.

KG >> Ewing.

It's this team aspect, which is so patently evident with Garnett (Exhibit A: how much better do the Celtics look in this year's playoffs and the 2008 playoffs as opposed to the 2009 playoffs -WHAT'S DIFFERENT?; Exhibit B: the T'Wolves were very good with absolute shit around him, with guys like Spree and Cassell playing the best ball of their careers). It's also this team aspect that makes one reconsider Kareem. He was a piece to surround Magic or Oscar.

That said Kareem is within striking distance of my top 20. Ewing, not so much.

What's different? They have a top 3 PG now. Hands down. No question about it. Rondo is more valuable to the team than Garnett. Rondo was good last year, but he is elite now.

You take Rondo out of this playoff season and there's a good chance the Celtics are sitting at home right now. You take Garnett out of this playoff season and there's a good chance the Celtics are still playing.

You take Garnett off this team and you get last season. Was Rondo a top 3 PG in 2008? Did he just forget in 2009? Garnett is the X factor for the Celtics, and everyone that watches them know it. He's the key. It's not even really debateable.

No. Most people think Rondo is the key, especially right now.

But I'm done with this. I'm obviously not going to change your opinion and you're obviously not going to change mine.

So why did they win in 2008, but not last year? Presumably Rondo improved from his sophomore season. Garnett missed the playoffs last year and 15 games this season. The Celtics weren't good over both stretches.

[commavegarage]

So what's your argument? That Ewing missed arguably the most important shot in his career and for that he shouldn't be considered?

And what will Garnett be remembered for...needing two perennial allstars and a great young PG to finally win or that anything is possible gay shit?

KG is a hundred times better defensively than Ewing was. KG makes his teammates better with his attitude (see Celtics team defensive turnaround). This is the epitome of leadership. Ewing didn't make his teammates better because he was quiet (and out of shape by end of his career). They are even offensively. KG is the better passer.

KG >> Ewing.

It's this team aspect, which is so patently evident with Garnett (Exhibit A: how much better do the Celtics look in this year's playoffs and the 2008 playoffs as opposed to the 2009 playoffs -WHAT'S DIFFERENT?; Exhibit B: the T'Wolves were very good with absolute shit around him, with guys like Spree and Cassell playing the best ball of their careers). It's also this team aspect that makes one reconsider Kareem. He was a piece to surround Magic or Oscar.

That said Kareem is within striking distance of my top 20. Ewing, not so much.

What's different? They have a top 3 PG now. Hands down. No question about it. Rondo is more valuable to the team than Garnett. Rondo was good last year, but he is elite now.

You take Rondo out of this playoff season and there's a good chance the Celtics are sitting at home right now. You take Garnett out of this playoff season and there's a good chance the Celtics are still playing.

You take Garnett off this team and you get last season. Was Rondo a top 3 PG in 2008? Did he just forget in 2009? Garnett is the X factor for the Celtics, and everyone that watches them know it. He's the key. It's not even really debateable.

No. Most people think Rondo is the key, especially right now.

But I'm done with this. I'm obviously not going to change your opinion and you're obviously not going to change mine.

So why did they win in 2008, but not last year? Presumably Rondo improved from his sophomore season. Garnett missed the playoffs last year and 15 games this season. The Celtics weren't good over both stretches.

Okay, nobody's debating that KG isn't a great player. He is, and obviously losing an allstar is huge. But its a huge leap to use that as reasoning for him being a top 20 player in the history of the game.

[twballgame9]

My point is: How do you know Garnett is such a better leader than Ewing was.

Opinion, obviously, based on observation. Do you disagree with it? If you do, you haven't stated that yet, besides posing a question as your "point". It's a widely held opinion that KG changed the culture in Boston with his leadership and intensity. With his addition, the team went from one of the worst defensive teams in the association to the best.

Let's look at it in a different way. What aspect of Ewing's game was better than KG's?

I'm gonna skip over the Jeter comparison, and save it for TW to tear apart.

I'd actually suggest that a Derek Jeter fan ought to STFU about statistical comparisons. Garnett's impact on the Celtics is very simlar to Jeter's on the Yankees, despite the fact that his numbers have dropped. Both are leaders. Ewing, not so much.

I think you missed the context of this argument. I'm not a Jeter "fan", but it would be downright stupid to argue the fact that he is a quiet leader, which is the point of the statement. Not who was better statistically. BN said that KG is a great leader from his intensity and whatnot and Ewing wasn't. I said yelling on the court isn't the only way to be a leader of a team and cited Jeter as an example.

Jeter is demonstrably intense on the baseball diamond.

[bignick33]

What aspect of Ewing's game was better than KG's? How can you praise Jeter's leadership ability while simultaneously stating that it's impossible to evaluate KG's or Ewing's?

[twballgame9]

What aspect of Ewing's game was better than KG's? How can you praise Jeter's leadership ability while simultaneously stating that it's impossible to evaluate KG's or Ewing's?

Ewing travelled better than Garnett.

[apbc12]

Speaking of big white stiffs, Chris Dudley won the GOP primary in the Oregon race for governor.

[bignick33]

Speaking of big white stiffs, Chris Dudley won the GOP primary in the Oregon race for governor.

Ha. That guy was a laughably horrendous free throw shooter.

[b0mberMan]

I disagree. Donkey Kong is the greatest video game ever made.

[angryty]

Ewing was a piece of garbage. There are a half dozen underrated centers from the 70s and early 80s who I would take over Ewing in a heartbeat. With that said, Garnett is every bit the gagging choke artist that Ewing was, he just was fortunate enough to ride shotgun for Rondo, Allen and Pierce--three players who were far better than the second best player Ewing ever had on his team. If you put 94-97 Ewing on the Celts a couple of years ago, they win the title just as easily. The fanboy love for Garnett is astonishing to this objective observer. If anything, he was exponentially worse than the excrable Ewing when he was the franchise player and he has the playoff record to prove it. Moreover, the assertion that the Celts would not have won without Garnett in 2007 is evidentiary proof that he is superior to Ewing is simply without merit. One could just as accurately state that the 94 Rockets would not have won the title without Robert Horry, this of course does not mean that Horry is a seminal player (although, in truth, any eductated fan would much rather have Horry with the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter of a playoff game then either Ewing or Garnett).

In any case, both Garnett and Ewing pale in comparison to Tim Duncan. While Duncan may be a corpse at this point in his career, he is exponentially better than either of the aforementioned gag artists. Also, 70s Kareem was so much better than either Garnett or Ewing, the Hubble telescope would have trouble seeing the distance between them. This isn't to say that Kareem isn't overrated to some degree, but it is also innaccurate to say that he was never the nest player on a team that won a championship--the decrepit moldering corpse that was the Big O in 1971 would very much like to disagree with you on that point.

[BCEagle74]

7. West ---2 -- -Played versus superb Celtic teams that were 3+ players deeper.
6. Wilt -- 3 -- If not for West..The LOGO --all around player and leader.
1. Jordan -- 5 -- NBA was diluted.
2. Russell -- 1 -- Could not score like Wilt and Wilt played defense too, but with bad ballclubs and midgets.
5. Robertson -- 4 -- Triple Double Nightly when it was never called that.
3. Magic -- 6 -- Had great supporting players and Kareem--where in Lew Alcindor?
***KAREE< ABDUL JABBAR*** -- 7TH SLOT
16. Kobe -- 8 -- Will go higher in 4 years.
18. Dr. J -- 9 --- Bad teams too..
4. Bird --- 10 -- Not a great defender.

15. Hondo -- 11 --Most underrated player in NBA history.
8. Baylor --- 14 --- Not much of defender

Insert>>>>>BELOW NAMES>>



9. Cousy --15 --- he had the team
10. Olajuwon -- 12 --Warrior 2 titles on his back
11. Shaq -- 13 -- No Kobe and great teams -- he was no Russell.
12. Stockton -- 18 --Solid career.
13. Thomas -- 14 -- Solid 2 titles but an asshole.
14. Barkley --20 ---no defense
17. Garnett -- 19 -- May move up.
19. Maravich --21-- Bad bad teams.
20. Duncan -- 16 -- 3 titles in like Jordan--diluted NBA.

Moses Malone...Karl Malone..Dave Bing..Rick Barry..Scottie Pippen..

FIXED![/quote]

[BCEagle74]

Re-fixed. Russell could get 20 caroms today.

Great ESPN story today.

[rceagles14]

I disagree. Donkey Kong is the greatest video game ever made.

You know what? You suck.

P.s. I'll trade you this banana for your snackpack.

[Dirtywater75]

The ones I enjoyed the best were Nate Archibald, Spencer Haywood, Earl the Pearl Monroe, John Havlicek, Jack Marin, Jerry West, Larry Bird and Dave DeBusschere. If I could only have one of them on my team - I'd probably take DeBusschere as he could play any position, rebound like a bull and make the rest of the team better.

[BCEagle74]

The ones I enjoyed the best were Nate Archibald, Spencer Haywood, Earl the Pearl Monroe, John Havlicek, Jack Marin, Jerry West, Larry Bird and Dave DeBusschere. If I could only have one of them on my team - I'd probably take DeBusschere as he could play any position, rebound like a bull and make the rest of the team better.

I miss those guys. That was such a special era.

[Ahzeem]

Your Number one stated in his own biogarapgh that he was not at the same level as Magic and Bird. Magic held him and his legacy at bay until he left the league. Jordan is the most iconic figure of this era of basketball but to be called the greatest player As he (Jordan) stated " Those guys are at a whole differnt level."

1. Jordan










2. Russell


3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Robertson





6. Wilt
7. West
8. Baylor
9. Cousy
10. Olajuwon




11. Shaq
12. Stockton
13. Thomas
14. Barkley
15. Hondo
16. Kobe
17. Garnett


18. Dr. J
19. Maravich
20. Duncan

[twballgame9]

Jordan was being modest for once in his life. I am Celtic fan that grew up watching Bird and Magic, and I see no way to put them over Jordan or the greatest team player of all time, Russell. They are a close 3rd and 4th, however.

Jordan wouldn't have topped this list after 6-7 years. He was a scorer that couldn't shoot on bad teams in the 80s. It's what he did in the 90s that cements it - he always got better. I suppose you could attribute that to Magic getting HIV and Bird and Isaiah retiring, thus weakening the league, but I think it had much more to do with Jordan maturing as a player.

[EagleDave]

The reason Magic & Bird held Jordan "at bay" for the first 6-7 years of his career had as much to do with Magic and Bird as it did James Worthy, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parish.

It's a long accepted fact that (contrary to popular perception) 1 player in the NBA can't win you a championship. Until Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant came along, Jordan was a 1 man band trying to carry a collection of bums against the deepest collection of talent the league had ever seen. That doesn't make Jordan a lesser player and it obviously doesn't mean that Pippen and Grant were better than MJ. It just means that nobody is above reality...you need quality supporting talent to win big in the NBA.

Without Kareem and Worthy, Magic doesn't win anything. Same with Bird without McHale and Parish.

The reason I believe Michael Jordan is the greatest NBA player of all-time is that he did buck 1 major trend that has also existed in the NBA for decades. In most cases, you don't win championships in the NBA without a dominant front court. Kareem/Worthy, McHale/Parrish, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan/Robinson, etc etc etc etc. Jordan won 6 championships with a primarily perimeter oriented team in an era where defenses were allowed to absolutely mug players on the perimeter. And the kicker is that he did it more efficiently than (supposedly) the 2nd best guard of all time (Kobe Bryant) who plays in a hands-off version of the league.

[cvilleagle]

The reason Magic & Bird held Jordan "at bay" for the first 6-7 years of his career had as much to do with Magic and Bird as it did James Worthy, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parish.

It's a long accepted fact that (contrary to popular perception) 1 player in the NBA can't win you a championship. Until Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant came along, Jordan was a 1 man band trying to carry a collection of bums against the deepest collection of talent the league had ever seen. That doesn't make Jordan a lesser player and it obviously doesn't mean that Pippen and Grant were better than MJ. It just means that nobody is above reality...you need quality supporting talent to win big in the NBA.

Without Kareem and Worthy, Magic doesn't win anything. Same with Bird without McHale and Parish.

The reason I believe Michael Jordan is the greatest NBA player of all-time is that he did buck 1 major trend that has also existed in the NBA for decades. In most cases, you don't win championships in the NBA without a dominant front court. Kareem/Worthy, McHale/Parrish, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan/Robinson, etc etc etc etc. Jordan won 6 championships with a primarily perimeter oriented team in an era where defenses were allowed to absolutely mug players on the perimeter. And the kicker is that he did it more efficiently than (supposedly) the 2nd best guard of all time (Kobe Bryant) who plays in a hands-off version of the league.

Hey, hey, hey...I think you're forgetting that Jordan had Luc Longley and Bill Wennington. Those guys were pretty solid.

Actually Bill Cartwright was pretty good, but obviously not dominant like the guys you listed.

[twballgame9]

By the way, Scottie Pippen is grotesquely overrated and HoGrant sucked.

[BCEagle74]

7. West ---2[/color][/b] -- -Played versus superb Celtic teams that were 3+ players deeper.
6. Wilt -- 4 -- If not for West..The LOGO --all around player and leader.
1. Jordan -- 5 -- NBA was diluted.
2. Russell -- 1 -- Could not score like Wilt and Wilt played defense too, but with bad ballclubs and midgets.
5. Robertson -- 3 -- Triple Double Nightly when it was never called that.
3. Magic -- 6 -- Had great supporting players and Kareem--where in Lew Alcindor?
***KAREE< ABDUL JABBAR*** -- 7TH SLOT
16. Kobe -- 8 -- Will go higher in 4 years.
18. Dr. J -- 9 --- Bad teams too..
4. Bird --- 10 -- Not a great defender.
15. Hondo -- 11 --Most underrated player in NBA history.
8. Baylor --- 14 --- Not much of defender

Insert>>>>>BELOW NAMES>>

9. Cousy --15 --- he had the team
10. Olajuwon -- 12 --Warrior 2 titles on his back
11. Shaq -- 13 -- No Kobe and great teams -- he was no Russell.
12. Stockton -- 18 --Solid career.
13. Thomas -- 14 -- Solid 2 titles but an asshole.
14. Barkley --20 ---no defense
17. Garnett -- 19 -- May move up.
19. Maravich --21-- Bad bad teams.
20. Duncan -- 16 -- 3 titles in like Jordan--diluted NBA.

Moses Malone...Karl Malone..Dave Bing..Rick Barry..Scottie Pippen..

[/quote]

FIXED![/quote][/quote]

Please remove all black names from my list.

Endless Mike the 74 says I am racist. That goes for football heroes and BC recruiting more dreadlocks...yup. just goldilock types!
Thansk!

[bignick33]

I remember when I liked this place because people understood they were fucking around on a message board.