Setting the timeline for success

[BCEagles25]

Al Skinner did a terrible job coaching with the talent he had last season. That is the only fact.

WINNER!

Not at all an Al defender but he didn't have that much talent last year. However, he still did a shit job coaching them, if he was able to beat Clemson he should be able to beat Maine. Al's teams are horribly inconsistent and that is one of the worst (of many) bad qualities that Al has as a coach.

Is there an echo in here?

[BC923]

Al Skinner did a terrible job coaching with the talent he had last season. That is the only fact.

WINNER!

Not at all an Al defender but he didn't have that much talent last year. However, he still did a shit job coaching them, if he was able to beat Clemson he should be able to beat Maine. Al's teams are horribly inconsistent and that is one of the worst (of many) bad qualities that Al has as a coach.

Is there an echo in here?

what?

[BCEagles25]

Al Skinner did a terrible job coaching with the talent he had last season. That is the only fact.

WINNER!

Not at all an Al defender but he didn't have that much talent last year. However, he still did a shit job coaching them, if he was able to beat Clemson he should be able to beat Maine. Al's teams are horribly inconsistent and that is one of the worst (of many) bad qualities that Al has as a coach.

Is there an echo in here?

what?

What you just said is exactly what I said minus the simplicity.

[HJS]

Al Skinner did a terrible job coaching with the talent he had last season. That is the only fact.

So, with a much better coach and pretty much the exact same team next year, how many wins will Donahue deliver? I'm just trying to wrap my head around the notion that 15 wins might be a great coaching job. Is Rakim Sanders that big of a loss now?

I believe Donahue is a better coach, and I believe getting rid of Sanders (only him) was a good idea, but one that might not help the team wins wise (it's not going to raise the win total), but more so chemistry wise. This team could probably win 16/17 with Sanders and I don't think they lose much if anything off that number without him. Yes, I believe coaching this team to 16 wins is a good coaching job, 18 or 19 might be a great one. This just isn't really an ACC caliber team right now, but I think as Donahue brings in better kids that suit his style we will improve and the standards for wins will go up.

So... how is it a fact that "Al Skinner did a terrible job coaching with the talent he had last season." Seems, based on your very own statements, that Skinner did a good/boarderline great job coaching something that "just isn't really an ACC caliber team right now." Now, you could say that Skinner was fired (not for coaching but) for created the not-ACC-caliber team.

talon's point is simple and accurate... Skinner could not have done a bad job coaching this year if 16 wins next year is to be considered a good coaching job by Coach D. If 16-wins wasn't OK for Skinner, it shouldn't be OK for D.

[talon]

Al Skinner did a terrible job coaching with the talent he had last season. That is the only fact.

So, with a much better coach and pretty much the exact same team next year, how many wins will Donahue deliver? I'm just trying to wrap my head around the notion that 15 wins might be a great coaching job. Is Rakim Sanders that big of a loss now?

I dunno. I don't fuckin' know. That's why I gave you a simple statement and said "that's the only fact."

stop quoting the "Al is the best we can do crowd"

I'm not quoting anybody. You clearly don't understand the reason why I gave such a short and simple statement.

you're quoting me. Eagledom has to go out of his way two or three times a day to let the board know that I'm on his ignore list. Which is great, because that means that he doesn't spend 15-20 minutes at a time searching my old posts and giving them negative karma.

[BCEagles25]

Al Skinner did a terrible job coaching with the talent he had last season. That is the only fact.

So, with a much better coach and pretty much the exact same team next year, how many wins will Donahue deliver? I'm just trying to wrap my head around the notion that 15 wins might be a great coaching job. Is Rakim Sanders that big of a loss now?

I dunno. I don't fuckin' know. That's why I gave you a simple statement and said "that's the only fact."

stop quoting the "Al is the best we can do crowd"

I'm not quoting anybody. You clearly don't understand the reason why I gave such a short and simple statement.

you're quoting me. Eagledom has to go out of his way two or three times a day to let the board know that I'm on his ignore list. Which is great, because that means that he doesn't spend 15-20 minutes at a time searching my old posts and giving them negative karma.

That 15-20 minutes is actually spent on me now.

[BC923]

Al Skinner did a terrible job coaching with the talent he had last season. That is the only fact.

So, with a much better coach and pretty much the exact same team next year, how many wins will Donahue deliver? I'm just trying to wrap my head around the notion that 15 wins might be a great coaching job. Is Rakim Sanders that big of a loss now?

I believe Donahue is a better coach, and I believe getting rid of Sanders (only him) was a good idea, but one that might not help the team wins wise (it's not going to raise the win total), but more so chemistry wise. This team could probably win 16/17 with Sanders and I don't think they lose much if anything off that number without him. Yes, I believe coaching this team to 16 wins is a good coaching job, 18 or 19 might be a great one. This just isn't really an ACC caliber team right now, but I think as Donahue brings in better kids that suit his style we will improve and the standards for wins will go up.

So... how is it a fact that "Al Skinner did a terrible job coaching with the talent he had last season." Seems, based on your very own statements, that Skinner did a good/boarderline great job coaching something that "just isn't really an ACC caliber team right now." Now, you could say that Skinner was fired (not for coaching but) for created the not-ACC-caliber team.

talon's point is simple and accurate... Skinner could not have done a bad job coaching this year if 16 wins next year is to be considered a good coaching job by Coach D. If 16-wins wasn't OK for Skinner, it shouldn't be OK for D.

Did Skinner win 16 games? Did I say 15 wins was a good border line great coaching job? HJS are you confusing me with BCEagles25? Also you are not taking into account that Coach D has to teach these kids an entirely new scheme. It is basically like everyone is a freshman because no one on the team knows the offensive or defensive sets. There are different circumstances with new coaches.

[talon]

talon's point is simple and accurate... Skinner could not have done a bad job coaching this year if 16 wins next year is to be considered a good coaching job by Coach D. If 16-wins wasn't OK for Skinner, it shouldn't be OK for D.

unless losing Sanders (and Roche) is significant.

[BCEagles25]

talon's point is simple and accurate... Skinner could not have done a bad job coaching this year if 16 wins next year is to be considered a good coaching job by Coach D. If 16-wins wasn't OK for Skinner, it shouldn't be OK for D.

unless losing Sanders (and Roche) is significant.

Who was it that claimed that losing two veteran players does not matter and that they should win more next year under a new coach with a shorter bench? I want to shake this person's hand.

[BC923]

talon's point is simple and accurate... Skinner could not have done a bad job coaching this year if 16 wins next year is to be considered a good coaching job by Coach D. If 16-wins wasn't OK for Skinner, it shouldn't be OK for D.

unless losing Sanders (and Roche) is significant.

it's not that, it is teaching these kids from scratch. They have to learn new everything, offense, defense, even new skills, guys are going to be shooting more. It is like a team full of freshman, no matter how much talent there will still be a learning curve. If SD ran the same offense and defense 16 wins wouldn't be ok for him, but he has to teach and the kids will be learning throughout the season.

[HJS]

you are an idiot. He will rebuild and replace guys like sanders - crap recruits from skinner. But its hard to ask to replace players for THIS year when you take over in April, when most players have signed already. He will start building with the 2011 class. Fucking moron.

"You are an idiot." Coach D had 6 schollies available to use in 2011 before losing any of the "crap recruits from Skinner". He was ALWAYS going to "start building with the 2011 class." "Fucking moron."

By running two players out of the program (Heslip and Papa), he is on the clock to replace them with two better players THIS year. As for Noreen, he tried to re-recruit the kid. And he failed. I pray that Coach D will be a much better recruiter than Al, but, in this one case, Al is up 1-nil.

For the record... I like Donahue. I like him a lot. When posters like OJ were crapping all over the guy in favor of O'Shea, I was one of the few begging for Gene to go to Ithaca and grab Fran Dunphy's protoge.

[talon]

So a genius X's and O's coach willl be unable to adapt to the players he's got and instead will make them adapt to him and he will throw next year away so that he can totally change the way a senior heavy team plays basketball?

[BC923]

So a genius X's and O's coach willl be unable to adapt to the players he's got and instead will make them adapt to him and he will throw next year away so that he can totally change the way a senior heavy team plays basketball?

It's the better way to eventually turn the program around and get success. Rather than change everything he plans on doing for the rest of his career for one year, he's going to do things the way he wants to to teach the younger players and show recruits what kind of system they will be playing in. It can mean a rough first year, but smoother sailing down the road.

[HJS]

Al Skinner did a terrible job coaching with the talent he had last season. That is the only fact.

So, with a much better coach and pretty much the exact same team next year, how many wins will Donahue deliver? I'm just trying to wrap my head around the notion that 15 wins might be a great coaching job. Is Rakim Sanders that big of a loss now?

I believe Donahue is a better coach, and I believe getting rid of Sanders (only him) was a good idea, but one that might not help the team wins wise (it's not going to raise the win total), but more so chemistry wise. This team could probably win 16/17 with Sanders and I don't think they lose much if anything off that number without him. Yes, I believe coaching this team to 16 wins is a good coaching job, 18 or 19 might be a great one. This just isn't really an ACC caliber team right now, but I think as Donahue brings in better kids that suit his style we will improve and the standards for wins will go up.

So... how is it a fact that "Al Skinner did a terrible job coaching with the talent he had last season." Seems, based on your very own statements, that Skinner did a good/boarderline great job coaching something that "just isn't really an ACC caliber team right now." Now, you could say that Skinner was fired (not for coaching but) for created the not-ACC-caliber team.

talon's point is simple and accurate... Skinner could not have done a bad job coaching this year if 16 wins next year is to be considered a good coaching job by Coach D. If 16-wins wasn't OK for Skinner, it shouldn't be OK for D.

Did Skinner win 16 games? Did I say 15 wins was a good border line great coaching job? HJS are you confusing me with BCEagles25? Also you are not taking into account that Coach D has to teach these kids an entirely new scheme. It is basically like everyone is a freshman because no one on the team knows the offensive or defensive sets. There are different circumstances with new coaches.

I took liberty in believing that one extra year of experience was worth one additional game in the win column.

BTW... I'm just going to say this... basketball really isn't that complicated. This ain't going from a man-blocking/dropback passer system to a zone-blocking/read option system in FB (something Jags was successful in converting in one year). BB is pretty freaking basic in it's concepts. The motion system Coach D is installing will take a week. The only real complicated offensive system being run in college BB today is the Princeton Offense... and even that is basic in its principles.

[Eagledom]

you are an idiot. He will rebuild and replace guys like sanders - crap recruits from skinner. But its hard to ask to replace players for THIS year when you take over in April, when most players have signed already. He will start building with the 2011 class. Fucking moron.

When posters like OJ were crapping all over the guy in favor of O'Shea, I was one of the few begging for Gene to go to Ithaca and grab Fran Dunphy's protoge.

Keep reaching. When you know your beat, just make shit up....

[twballgame9]

The Fire Al Crowd is making excuses for the successor (who, ironically, the Don't Fire Al Crowd actually likes more than they do) already. Let's put it this way: if Donahue only wins 15 games next year, he should be fired. Period.

I think running off Sanders was a giant mistake from a win total standpoint. I also think Donahue is a better Xs and Os guy than Al. BC should have won 18-20 this season even without Sanders. If they don't next year, it is a bad season. Period.

If Al was a bad coach, and Sanders an overrated bum, the loss of Sanders and Roche should not all of a sudden render 15 wins a good season. You sound like a bunch of fucking Spaz apologists when I got yelled at for saying the football should win 9 games last season - I was "setting expectations too high."

What the fuck happened to OJ's ever to excel now? Where's the "I hate we are what we are mentality" now?

Bring it OJ, why the change? Why will 15 wins be acceptable? Other than the obvious.

[Eagledom]

The Fire Al Crowd is making excuses for the successor (who, ironically, the Don't Fire Al Crowd actually likes more than they do) already. Let's put it this way: if Donahue only wins 15 games next year, he should be fired. Period.

I think running off Sanders was a giant mistake from a win total standpoint. I also think Donahue is a better Xs and Os guy than Al. BC should have won 18-20 this season even without Sanders. If they don't next year, it is a bad season. Period.

If Al was a bad coach, and Sanders an overrated bum, the loss of Sanders and Roche should not all of a sudden render 15 wins a good season. You sound like a bunch of fucking Spaz apologists when I got yelled at for saying the football should win 9 games last season - I was "setting expectations too high."

What the fuck happened to OJ's ever to excel now? Where's the "I hate we are what we are mentality" now?

Bring it OJ, why the change? Why will 15 wins be acceptable? Other than the obvious.

If you are referring to me, try again. I have never said 15 wins is a "good season." Oops.

[HJS]

The Fire Al Crowd is making excuses for the successor (who, ironically, the Don't Fire Al Crowd actually likes more than they do) already.

The world according to the Fire All Crowd:
Al Skinner < Steve Donahue < Anybody else
They will defend to the death that Coach D is better than Skinner. But, they will quickly point out that "that ain't saying much" the second The Don struggles.

[twballgame9]

Reading this board, I've been led to believe that Al Skinner was rock-bottom terrible. Anybody else would have been an improvement and Steve "Anybody Else" Donahue only loses Roche (who everybody agrees sucks) and Sanders (who everyone seems to believe is a clubhouse cancer and his departure is something to celebrate).
So, less than 15 wins next year would be a DISASTER.

Unless the loss of Roche/Sanders isn't a reason to be happy and/or unless Al Skinner was not a rock-bottom terrible coach.

Do you think Rakim was a good teammate?

now that's funny. You lose a starter (who never lived up to his hype/potential, but still scored 12 points a game) and don't replace him, and you are supposed to be a better team. Gotta love the skinner lovers. so if a really bad baseball team loses a mediocre player that was one of their leading RBI guys and doesn't replace him, they are supposed to score more runs...

donahue is a better coach than skinner, but he can only do so much with skinners crappy recruits, let alone skinners crappy recruits minus 2.

Truth is, OJ, you never say much of anything. Will 15 wins be acceptable next season? Will you answer?

[Eagledom]

Reading this board, I've been led to believe that Al Skinner was rock-bottom terrible. Anybody else would have been an improvement and Steve "Anybody Else" Donahue only loses Roche (who everybody agrees sucks) and Sanders (who everyone seems to believe is a clubhouse cancer and his departure is something to celebrate).
So, less than 15 wins next year would be a DISASTER.

Unless the loss of Roche/Sanders isn't a reason to be happy and/or unless Al Skinner was not a rock-bottom terrible coach.

Do you think Rakim was a good teammate?

now that's funny. You lose a starter (who never lived up to his hype/potential, but still scored 12 points a game) and don't replace him, and you are supposed to be a better team. Gotta love the skinner lovers. so if a really bad baseball team loses a mediocre player that was one of their leading RBI guys and doesn't replace him, they are supposed to score more runs...

donahue is a better coach than skinner, but he can only do so much with skinners crappy recruits, let alone skinners crappy recruits minus 2.

Truth is, OJ, you never say much of anything. Will 15 wins be acceptable next season? Will you answer?

15 wins would not be a good season.

[BCEagle74]

TIMELINE = NOW = MARCH 2011.

SUCCESS: If we are in a field of 96 and ranked 33rd or above and play on Tuesday or Monday, BC will win 4 games and be in the Sweet 16 and maybe the Elite 8 with Stevie D.

1--TRAPANI 6-7 RAVENEL 6-8 SOUTHERN 6-10 (Sore Shoulder healed), DUNN 6-8, and RAJI 6-6, -- will be in game shape and get better this summer and have new attitudes and the other bongettes will have quit which was not enforced after the Chinaman left.

MAybe NADO can be a player right out and you get 6 guys.

2--Paris 6-1, Jackson 6-3 and ELMORE 6-5 should be enough, but one more guard woulda been sweet.

So 30-30-20...big deal. Maybe you get 6 minutes from white gaulks Mosakowski 6-1 and Judge Rehnquist 6-4.

19-8
3-1 ACC
7-0 NCAA

29-9 CHAMPIONS.


ROLL ME AN 11 to the Title.

NOW is the time for success and turn that into recruiting magic.

When we win at least 3 NCAA Games..someone remind me of this post.

[twballgame9]

Reading this board, I've been led to believe that Al Skinner was rock-bottom terrible. Anybody else would have been an improvement and Steve "Anybody Else" Donahue only loses Roche (who everybody agrees sucks) and Sanders (who everyone seems to believe is a clubhouse cancer and his departure is something to celebrate).
So, less than 15 wins next year would be a DISASTER.

Unless the loss of Roche/Sanders isn't a reason to be happy and/or unless Al Skinner was not a rock-bottom terrible coach.

Do you think Rakim was a good teammate?

now that's funny. You lose a starter (who never lived up to his hype/potential, but still scored 12 points a game) and don't replace him, and you are supposed to be a better team. Gotta love the skinner lovers. so if a really bad baseball team loses a mediocre player that was one of their leading RBI guys and doesn't replace him, they are supposed to score more runs...

donahue is a better coach than skinner, but he can only do so much with skinners crappy recruits, let alone skinners crappy recruits minus 2.

Truth is, OJ, you never say much of anything. Will 15 wins be acceptable next season? Will you answer?

15 wins would not be a good season.

Correct.

[bapst]

Since I started this thread originally, I'll try to clarify.

Step 1) New regime absolutely does need to bring in at least two ACC caliber players (late switchers or jucos) before school starts. At least one of those guys needs to make the rotation right away. Beyond that, recommend saving them for a big push for 2011. I'll be discouraged if we start handing out four-year scholarships to Division 2 talent simply to have bodies on the bench.

Step 2) Coach the seniors up, especially Southern and maybe Biko. While Donahue was brought in to infuse and change the culture of the program, coaching is part of the job description. Assuming a 96 team field, my original post said making the tournament is the goal for 2010-11. For that to happen, 15 wins won't cut it. Will need probably 18 to get in. Beat the cupcakes (Harvard, St. Joe, and Maine), and we would have done that this year.

I expect the ACC to be stronger next year, so achieving a similar conference record without Sanders and Roche would be a good job by the incoming administration, in my opinion. So I don't believe we are not lowering the bar for Donahue. Get this team into the dance, Steve. This year!

Please re-read the original post; are the time lines I set for 2012, 2013, 2014 realistic?

[Eagledom]

Step 2) Coach the seniors up, especially Southern and maybe Biko. While Donahue was brought in to infuse and change the culture of the program, coaching is part of the job description.

You really think that any coach could come in and do anything to significantly improve Southern and Paris in a year and a half? Especially southern?

[apbc12]

Step 2) Coach the seniors up, especially Southern and maybe Biko. While Donahue was brought in to infuse and change the culture of the program, coaching is part of the job description.

You really think that any coach could come in and do anything to significantly improve Southern and Paris in a year and a half? Especially southern?

So many of your conflicting viewpoints are represented by this single post.

[Art Vandelay]

So a genius X's and O's coach willl be unable to adapt to the players he's got and instead will make them adapt to him and he will throw next year away so that he can totally change the way a senior heavy team plays basketball?

The seniors aren't heavy anymore. Rakim left.

[bcmurph]

"By running two players out of the program (Heslip and Papa),"

Did I miss something or did you mean Heslip and Sanders?

[BC923]

The Fire Al Crowd is making excuses for the successor (who, ironically, the Don't Fire Al Crowd actually likes more than they do) already. Let's put it this way: if Donahue only wins 15 games next year, he should be fired. Period.

You can't fire a guy after one year. While 15 wins wouldn't be good at all next year if you keep firing people too soon then you end up like notre dame football. A first year coach would have to win >12 games with this team to warrant a firing. That said, in the years after that there are no excuses.

[pick6pedro]

Let's put it this way: if Donahue only wins 15 games next year, he should be fired. Period.

Maybe I missed something, but I hope you're joking. You were willing to give Skinner a pass for one more year when he only pulled out 15 wins, yet Donahue doesn't get any kind of pass when showing up in April for the same win total 11 months later?

[EagleNYC]

This past year's BC squad was talented in the sense that it had some athletic players and some players with high ceilings (with Sanders and Jackson being a combo). Say what you want about his work ethic and jump shot, but Rakim Sanders was taking over ACC games in '08/'09 and hitting game winning shots. The kid has undeniable talent and always was best when the lights were bright. Jackson has All-ACC ability and athleticism. The rest of the team was composed of role players: Raji (energy, glass work); Trapani (3's); Roche (more 3's), Dunn (defense, rebounds); Biko (pass 1st PG). More than anything else, though is that the team had the cohesion of playing together the year before. Taken together, 15-16 (6-10) was a failure, and Al had to take his lumps. He also gets called out for the lack of development from Southern (I don't need to elaborate).

Next year Coach D. gets a different squad. I'm not taking Rakim/Heslip/Noreen into consideration because I don't really know what went down. With the team he has, which is clearly worse, I still expect him to surpass 15 wins- call it 17, and at least a one game improvement in the ACC. I'm basing this on his pedigree of being a great coach and the fact that there is still talent on the team next year. While he can't make Trapani's 3s for him (and if he made a few more, I think Al is still the coach) or layups for Raji, but he has to find a way to channel the parts he has into a winning mold.