Fire Skinner? Poll, performance approval thread

[EaglesTalon]

[MrAwesome]This is all Spaz' fault. FIRE SPAZ!!![/MrAwesome]

[twballgame9]

Setting expectations based on winning 4 straight games against the best teams in the country (and having to beat one of the top 8, depending on draw) doesn't do it for me. Teams lose games. Especially to good teams. It is why basketball is so much better than football, you have to get the luck, draw and momentum to win 6 straight games against the best of the best. It is hard.

First, making the elite 8 would be winning 3 straight games. That being said, avoiding WTF losses like tonight make the first two a hell of a lot easier. How should you not expect your team to win games against bad teams when it wins games against good teams?

I never excused this loss. It is a bad loss for seeding. I am only responding to the ridiculous concept that losses like this are some rarity and that Al should be fired over it.

Yes you did. You said we shouldn't be surprised that we lost because we didn't have Rakim.

Not being surprised and excusing are two entirely different verbs. I said BC wins this and St. Joes with Rakim. Without Rakim, this was no big shocker like everyone is making out. Even in recent wins, they have been missing a go-to guy badly.

Regardless, I didn't excuse it, it is still not a good loss and Raji, Jackson and the boys should be able to make some layups and free throws to beat Harvard. I also don't excuse Al for not having the team ready to play. Not excusing him and wanting him fired are two entirely different things.

Okay, so how should we not be surprised that after beating Michigan and Providence on the road without Rakim we would lose at home to an Ivy League team?

First of all, Michigan and Providence aren't very good. Second of all, the signs were there. They barely hung on. The players choked up down the stretch. I figured BC would win tonight, they should have, but it's not a big shock that they didn't. Corey Raji is their go-to guy right now

[twballgame9]

By the way, I am more than willing to debate whether Al should have made an Elite 8 or Final 4 appearance rationally. My vitriol is reserved for fucktards that say things like: "BC lost to Harvard. You either want to fire Al or you are an apologist Merryman like those that defended TOB." Mostly just failed-blog-boy, who made his ignominious return after disappearing in a huff because buconvict said mean things.

Fact is, there is much about Al that annoys me, from the in-bounds plays, to the historical lack of second half adjustments, to the inability to target and land one really high recruit when he is the coach of one of the top teams in the top conference. But in my mind, he does so many things to way outweigh the bad, that any discussion of firing him is dumb. Most teams, including many ACC teams with long time coaches, would kill to go to 7 of 9 tourneys and throw up a few conference championship banners.

Again, comparing football is dumb (especially when you are talking about the ACC, where the ACC has 12 shit football teams and 2 nationa powerhouse hoop teams, but in general). But if I must answer the dumb ass failed analogy to TOB, the reality is that tonight's game doesn't mean shit. If TOB had lost to Kent while winning an ACC or BE title, then fine. If Al always lost 2-3 miserable conference games (if there is such a thing in ACC hoop) to lose a title, then there would be a comparison. People who get on Al for Harvard or Duquesne in early December are the same people that think the ND football game means something. TOB thought that. I would prefer he lost to ND and focused on conference games that can get him a title like Syracuse, UNC and NCSU. I prefer Al lose to Harvard and beat Miami.

That is all.

[DuchesneEast]

I am still pissed we choked the game away against Villanova, that was our quad centurial chance at a NC.

[DuchesneEast]

Look what I just found on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=52788787670&ref=search&sid=1600448.2318327333..1

I just joined the group. I'm sick of this shit from Skinner. For the rest of the year, and I don't really care what the record says, I don't want to hear any more from your Skinner defenders.

You need to eat better your profile pic looks pale.

[eepstein0]

Look what I just found on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=52788787670&ref=search&sid=1600448.2318327333..1

I just joined the group. I'm sick of this shit from Skinner. For the rest of the year, and I don't really care what the record says, I don't want to hear any more from your Skinner defenders.

You need to eat better your profile pic looks pale.

My profile picture is me with Baldwin. Thus I'm confused.

[b0mberMan]

Hey guys... did I miss anything last night?

[branchinator]

Honest question for the pro-Skinner crowd:

Do you think he is capable of putting together a team that is talented enough to get past the first weekend of the tournament AND coach them to that point? I no longer do. Here's our tournament history:

2000-2001: Barely escape a Round 1 upset and then lose to USC despite forcing like 30 turnovers. Disappointment.
2001-2002: Destroyed by Texas in the first round. Team probably didn't deserve a bid that year.
2002-2003: NIT. Bounced early by Temple in Bell's senior season.
2003-2004: Beat Utah in Round 1 and then lose a close game to Georgia Tech in Round 2 thanks to Steve Hailey and Craig Smith's awful game.
2004-2005: Beat Penn in Round 1 and then get embarrassed by Wisconsin-Milwaukee in Round 2. Huge disappointment.
2005-2006: Most talented BC team ever. Barely avoid Round 1 upset to Pacific. Beat a garbage Montana team in Round 2. Blow a huge lead to Villanova. HUGE disappointment.
2006-2007: Beat Texas Tech in Round 1. Lose tough contest to Georgetown in Round 2 without our suspended pot smoker.
2007-2008: Terrible team. No tournament.
2008-2009: Embarrassed by USC in Round 1.

So, in 9 seasons, Al made the tournament 7 times (very good), yet, only managed to reach the 2nd weekend once. If making the tournament is all you care about, then Skinner is the coach for you. You can't argue with a 77% success rate in that department. But if you want a deeper run every once and a while, then you're out of luck with Skinner. He's clearly plateaued as a coach. I give Skinner this year and the next. He has a team that's talented enough to make the tournament and do a little damage. This year, we're probably NIT bound. Next year, we'll have everyone back except for Roche and 3 quality freshmen. If he doesn't do anything with that team, then it's time to make a change in my opinion. Our Skinner has gotten stale.

Oh brother. I am done. HUGE Disappointment losing to a pesky 1 seed like Villanova. Sad to lose to National Runner Up Georgia Tech. Sorry we lost to Final Four team Georgetown (their best team since Patrick Ewing by the way).

Fact is that the early Bell teams were terrible and played in a hyper diluted conference that went from Kerry Kittles, Allen Iverson, Ray Allen to Sweetney, Bell and Troy fucking Murphy in 5-6 very short seasons. The Smith years were marked with tough draws - hitting GT, Nova and G'Town with great teams or on hot stretches (unless you have 5 NBA players, it is all about LUCK, DRAW and MOMENTUM - any Syracuse fan will tell you that). Last year and the year they played Texas, they overachieved and hit a tough draw. To me, the UWM loss is the only really bad loss of the bunch.

What every one ignores is that not all tourney teams are created equal. BC has had several years where Al did a great job to get them in to the tourney. Any one expecting a Final Four with Jonathan Beerbom and Xavier Singletary at forward needs to pass the bong.

The last Smith team and the last Dudley team were the only legit contenders. One lost a tough game with a #1 seed, and one lost **** ********* to pot and still gave #2 seed G'Town a great battle. Is it dissapointing that they didn't go past that point? Sure. But to make it sound like bad coaching is lame.

The fact is that Skinner teams routinely get out-coached in the tournament, which is why you saw this team blow a huge lead to UW-M and Villanova. No, losing to Villanova isn't embarrassing. That team was very good. But it was HOW we lost that pissed me off. I mean, we had like a 17 point first half lead. Skinner teams choke in the tournament, pure and simple.

[eepstein0]

Hey guys... did I miss anything last night?

Nope we beat Harvard in hockey last night. Nothing to see here haha

[EaglesTalon]

I hate to go full circle and ask for a list of names (the way people on EA would demand names for replacements for TOB), but the one thing that's changed since then is that Gene's actually had to hire coaches. In the Fire-TOB discussions from 2003/04, nobody knew what kind of hire Gene would make, so it wasn't that difficult to come up with a list of young up-and-coming coaches and coordinators.

But, now we know what type of person Gene will hire.

If this is Al Skinner's final year, there's no doubt in my mind that this would be a VERY attractive job for people who really want to make a name for themselves. Next year, this team will be losing only Tyler Roche. There's a very real possibility that the Jags version of a college basketball coach sees next year's BC team as an opportunity to inherit a senior-heavy team & if a first year coach can make some noise in the NCAAs, his name will be mentioned in a lot of coaching searches the following year. And that scares the shit out of Gene.

So, if Gene fires Al this year, or if Al retires on his own, the next coach of BC will be Pat Duquette.

[branchinator]

Skinner won't be fired this year. The team will be good enough to avoid criticism from the casual fan. But if next year's team flops, then I think Skinner might be on the hot seat for the first time ever.

[OCs_Inner_Eagle]

But, now we know what type of person Gene will hire.

If this is Al Skinner's final year, there's no doubt in my mind that this would be a VERY attractive job for people who really want to make a name for themselves. Next year, this team will be losing only Tyler Roche. There's a very real possibility that the Jags version of a college basketball coach sees next year's BC team as an opportunity to inherit a senior-heavy team & if a first year coach can make some noise in the NCAAs, his name will be mentioned in a lot of coaching searches the following year. And that scares the shit out of Gene.

So, if Gene fires Al this year, or if Al retires on his own, the next coach of BC will be Pat Duquette.

I agree with this line of thinking, except that I think Bill Coen would be offered first before Duquette.

ATL's right that Al is safe, and that's for good reason. Lest we forget all those years JOB managed to snatch the NIT out of the jaws of the NCAA, and how NIT runs turned into staying home in March (Corey Beasley says "Hi")? Then JOB torches the program on the way out the door. So we're going to let go of Al, and find some coach who focuses more on histrionics (on floor and off) than actual coaching. No thanks.

The biggest thing I don't like about Al is the lack of attention to defense. He relies on the Flex to produce consistently, but defensive effort never slumps. I suspect this goes to preserving energy due to (in Al's mind) a lack of trustworthy depth.

This leads into the second issue. Al's system, in recruiting and in style of play, doesn't produce enough depth and redundancy to survive WTF games. Dr. Tom had the right idea, going with the full-blown press. That style traded baskets for turnovers, and it demanded a full roster fully engaged in the game. The high-energy style also protected against letdowns, as there was always someone else looking for time if you wanted to dog it. You would need a higher level of talent to beat an engaged UNC or Kansas, but in the meantime you're less prone to Robert Morris-style letdowns.

[pick6pedro]

If this is Al Skinner's final year, there's no doubt in my mind that this would be a VERY attractive job for people who really want to make a name for themselves. Next year, this team will be losing only Tyler Roche. There's a very real possibility that the Jags version of a college basketball coach sees next year's BC team as an opportunity to inherit a senior-heavy team & if a first year coach can make some noise in the NCAAs, his name will be mentioned in a lot of coaching searches the following year. And that scares the shit out of Gene.

But this is part of the reason he won't get fired. "Well, next year is looking up" is the standard complacent response and I assure you that's what GDF and Leahy (if he knew we played ball) would say to immediately justify Al staying through 2010-2011. This doesn't parallel the TOB situation at all in that Al isn't looking for a raise, and he isn't being courted by other suitors.

[DuchesneEast]

Look what I just found on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=52788787670&ref=search&sid=1600448.2318327333..1

I just joined the group. I'm sick of this shit from Skinner. For the rest of the year, and I don't really care what the record says, I don't want to hear any more from your Skinner defenders.

You need to eat better your profile pic looks pale.

My profile picture is me with Baldwin. Thus I'm confused.

Maybe your pic is on private, all i see is a white siloutte on a light blue background.

[EaglesTalon]

If this is Al Skinner's final year, there's no doubt in my mind that this would be a VERY attractive job for people who really want to make a name for themselves. Next year, this team will be losing only Tyler Roche. There's a very real possibility that the Jags version of a college basketball coach sees next year's BC team as an opportunity to inherit a senior-heavy team & if a first year coach can make some noise in the NCAAs, his name will be mentioned in a lot of coaching searches the following year. And that scares the shit out of Gene.

But this is part of the reason he won't get fired. "Well, next year is looking up" is the standard complacent response and I assure you that's what GDF and Leahy (if he knew we played ball) would say to immediately justify Al staying through 2010-2011. This doesn't parallel the TOB situation at all in that Al isn't looking for a raise, and he isn't being courted by other suitors.

I'm just saying that when Jags saw that the BC job opened up, he went for it hard. And it's clear to me that he saw he'd be inheriting a kick ass defense and a QB named Matt Ryan. The team the previous year finished tied for first in the division, and really wasn't losing that much. The stars were aligned for him perfectly: Take a good team, get them over the hump (win the ACC, play in the Orange Bowl) and wait for the NFL offers to come in. I think Jags saw that best case scenario for him was that he coaches BC for one year, goes to the Orange Bowl, then takes an NFL job.

So, if the BC basketball coaching position opens up next year (and let's just pretend that it's because Al Skinner decided on his own to retire), I think there would be some fantastic coaches that would actively campaign for the job in the same way Jags campaigned for the job. Inherit a team full of experienced seniors, take them to the next level, and the year after that they'd be candidates for higher profile NCAA jobs or even the NBA. Which is why, if GDF has to make a hire in basketball, will probably stay away from anyone who shows the slightest inkling of ambition.

[buconvict]

Wisconsin lost to Green Bay last night... should Bo Ryan be fired?

I'm assuming people will say no. What I do not understand is why losing to Harvard is the straw that breaks the camel's back. If BC lost to Harvard in the first round of the Tourny, I'd understand the freakout a little better. This is just a meaningless game in December. They lost, big deal. In the grand scheme of things, it will probably serve as a motivator for them and propel the team to the tourny. The loss to Havard last year didn't hurt BC (Despite KOD saying that BC was on the bubble), so it probably won't this year.

Just like Wisconsin losing to Green Bay won't matter in March either.

[apbc12]

Wisconsin lost to Green Bay last night... should Bo Ryan be fired?

I'm assuming people will say no. What I do not understand is why losing to Harvard is the straw that breaks the camel's back. If BC lost to Harvard in the first round of the Tourny, I'd understand the freakout a little better. This is just a meaningless game in December. They lost, big deal. In the grand scheme of things, it will probably serve as a motivator for them and propel the team to the tourny. The loss to Havard last year didn't hurt BC (Despite KOD saying that BC was on the bubble), so it probably won't this year.

Just like Wisconsin losing to Green Bay won't matter in March either.

I'm pretty sure OJ said we weren't even on the bubble. Just like football, when we were mathematically eliminated from the ACC championship game until we made it.

[b0mberMan]

I'm just saying that when Jags saw that the BC job opened up, he went for it hard. And it's clear to me that he saw he'd be inheriting a kick ass defense and a QB named Matt Ryan. The team the previous year finished tied for first in the division, and really wasn't losing that much. The stars were aligned for him perfectly: Take a good team, get them over the hump (win the ACC, play in the Orange Bowl) and wait for the NFL offers to come in. I think Jags saw that best case scenario for him was that he coaches BC for one year, goes to the Orange Bowl, then takes an NFL job.

So, if the BC basketball coaching position opens up next year (and let's just pretend that it's because Al Skinner decided on his own to retire), I think there would be some fantastic coaches that would actively campaign for the job in the same way Jags campaigned for the job. Inherit a team full of experienced seniors, take them to the next level, and the year after that they'd be candidates for higher profile NCAA jobs or even the NBA. Which is why, if GDF has to make a hire in basketball, will probably stay away from anyone who shows the slightest inkling of ambition.

Bill Coen is probably the first and last guy Gene will call if Al leaves.

[EaglesTalon]

I know that this question probably doesn't pertain to anyone on this board, but I wonder how many people who are fed up with Al Skinner and want him gone had tickets to last nights game, didn't use them and didn't give them away.

[Eagledom]

I know that this question probably doesn't pertain to anyone on this board, but I wonder how many people who are fed up with Al Skinner and want him gone had tickets to last nights game, didn't use them and didn't give them away.

basketball attendance has been fucking terrible for years. I don't think gener is going to get that hint.

[twballgame9]

Skinner won't be fired this year. The team will be good enough to avoid criticism from the casual fan. But if next year's team flops, then I think Skinner might be on the hot seat for the first time ever.

This I agree with. Next year's team should be one of the favorites to win the ACC

[bignick33]

I'm just saying that when Jags saw that the BC job opened up, he went for it hard. And it's clear to me that he saw he'd be inheriting a kick ass defense and a QB named Matt Ryan. The team the previous year finished tied for first in the division, and really wasn't losing that much. The stars were aligned for him perfectly: Take a good team, get them over the hump (win the ACC, play in the Orange Bowl) and wait for the NFL offers to come in. I think Jags saw that best case scenario for him was that he coaches BC for one year, goes to the Orange Bowl, then takes an NFL job.

So, if the BC basketball coaching position opens up next year (and let's just pretend that it's because Al Skinner decided on his own to retire), I think there would be some fantastic coaches that would actively campaign for the job in the same way Jags campaigned for the job. Inherit a team full of experienced seniors, take them to the next level, and the year after that they'd be candidates for higher profile NCAA jobs or even the NBA. Which is why, if GDF has to make a hire in basketball, will probably stay away from anyone who shows the slightest inkling of ambition.

Bill Coen is probably the first and last guy Gene will call if Al leaves.

Jared Dudley, Duh

[Eagledom]

Skinner won't be fired this year. The team will be good enough to avoid criticism from the casual fan. But if next year's team flops, then I think Skinner might be on the hot seat for the first time ever.

This I agree with. Next year's team should be one of the favorites to win the ACC

Jesus Christ. Enough already.

[twballgame9]

Skinner won't be fired this year. The team will be good enough to avoid criticism from the casual fan. But if next year's team flops, then I think Skinner might be on the hot seat for the first time ever.

This I agree with. Next year's team should be one of the favorites to win the ACC

Jesus Christ. Enough already.

They are going to finish fourth or higher this season, jackass.

[Eagledom]

Skinner won't be fired this year. The team will be good enough to avoid criticism from the casual fan. But if next year's team flops, then I think Skinner might be on the hot seat for the first time ever.

This I agree with. Next year's team should be one of the favorites to win the ACC

Jesus Christ. Enough already.

They are going to finish fourth or higher this season, jackass.

I bet Harvard and St Joes wish they were in the ACC this year. They'd play each other in the title game.

[pick6pedro]

Skinner won't be fired this year. The team will be good enough to avoid criticism from the casual fan. But if next year's team flops, then I think Skinner might be on the hot seat for the first time ever.

This I agree with. Next year's team should be one of the favorites to win the ACC

Jesus Christ. Enough already.

They are going to finish fourth or higher this season, jackass.

I bet Harvard and St Joes wish they were in the ACC this year. They'd play each other in the title game.

Eagledom has yet to figure out that the ACC standings aren't affected by OOC games. Did the Harvard loss last year knock us down a peg or two in the ACC standings? DERP!

[twballgame9]

BC ACC record, 2009-10: 1-0

[Eagledom]

Skinner won't be fired this year. The team will be good enough to avoid criticism from the casual fan. But if next year's team flops, then I think Skinner might be on the hot seat for the first time ever.

This I agree with. Next year's team should be one of the favorites to win the ACC

Jesus Christ. Enough already.

They are going to finish fourth or higher this season, jackass.

I bet Harvard and St Joes wish they were in the ACC this year. They'd play each other in the title game.

Eagledom has yet to figure out that the ACC standings aren't affected by OOC games. Did the Harvard loss last year knock us down a peg or two in the ACC standings? DERP!

No - its called watching the games that we've played and using them as a barometer for how good we are.

[twballgame9]

Skinner won't be fired this year. The team will be good enough to avoid criticism from the casual fan. But if next year's team flops, then I think Skinner might be on the hot seat for the first time ever.

This I agree with. Next year's team should be one of the favorites to win the ACC

Jesus Christ. Enough already.

They are going to finish fourth or higher this season, jackass.

I bet Harvard and St Joes wish they were in the ACC this year. They'd play each other in the title game.

Eagledom has yet to figure out that the ACC standings aren't affected by OOC games. Did the Harvard loss last year knock us down a peg or two in the ACC standings? DERP!

No - its called watching the games that we've played and using them as a barometer for how good we are.

So what did you take out of beating Miami, and Providence and Michigan on the road, without BC's best player?

[pick6pedro]

Skinner won't be fired this year. The team will be good enough to avoid criticism from the casual fan. But if next year's team flops, then I think Skinner might be on the hot seat for the first time ever.

This I agree with. Next year's team should be one of the favorites to win the ACC

Jesus Christ. Enough already.

They are going to finish fourth or higher this season, jackass.

I bet Harvard and St Joes wish they were in the ACC this year. They'd play each other in the title game.

Eagledom has yet to figure out that the ACC standings aren't affected by OOC games. Did the Harvard loss last year knock us down a peg or two in the ACC standings? DERP!

No - its called watching the games that we've played and using them as a barometer for how good we are.

So what did you take out of beating Miami, and Providence and Michigan on the road, without BC's best player?

That Harvard would HOUSE all of them, obviously.