Official fire JC thread

[eagle9903]

As a further note, I don't care about the Christian/Schmidt comparison, tomato, tomahto. I just can't let "college hoop is all recruiting and rolling the ball out there" to pass unchecked. That logic is why the NBA fucking sucks.

Explain to me Roy Williams or Paul Hewitt. It's like 90% about talent.

No system in the world is going to work with this band of clowns and idiots BC is deploying on a nightly basis. The players are absolutely awful with the exception of SBT and Milon. The other good ones are hurt. Everyone else BC gives minutes to sucks out loud and I wouldn't take them on my pickup team

You can get so much talent that you can be good enough to overcome shitty coaching. You can also be Butler, or VCU, or George Mason or the innumerable programs that reach the Final Four/Elite Eight/Sweet Sixteen without anything remotely resembling that level of talent.

The national champion is usually a combination of the two (Izzo, Pitino, K, Calipari, Calhoun, Boeheim (and staff), Gary Williams, Pitino part II (Billy Donovan)).

My point is that it requires a minimum amount of talent to work. Donahue Year 1 was probably about that line

His system required a minimum level of talent, yes.

No system in the world is working for this group

Your retarded

Is this where I can flip out about your and you're?

That was completely for the benefit of someone other than you, but have at it.

[ATLeagle]

You don't need a ton of future NBA stars, but you do need conference level talent and in college it helps to have some sort of system that you can teach, execute and resort to when you need a basket or a stop. Skinner was close to ideal for BC in that he had a good eye for talented, self-motivated players and could adapt an offense in the flex to different skills (the Bell flex was not as tight as the Dudley/Smith). His problems were that he never focused enough on D and when the talent underachieved (ironically with his highest rated recruiting class), Gene took the opportunity to can him.

Donahue was too overconfident and too much of a control freak. His players checked out and he did not have a good enough eye for talent. See telling Heslip to take a hike, Kris Dunn, Niang, etc. Also like Skinner, his teams never played D. The offense would have been fine with better players.

There is so much wrong with Christian right now, I don't know if any of us can point to one problem. Not enough talent, checked out players, not dealing with Carter and having no idea what to do on offense. The D is getting better, so I have a little hope. Using the 2-3 as a base is not a bad idea. Now just hope that these kids get better quickly.

[Shoreagle]

Atl, what is Christian's offense? Is it drive and dish? Motion? I can't tell. It seems like a perpetual weave until there are five seconds left on the shot clock and then some ill advised shot most of the time.

[eagle9903]

You don't need a ton of future NBA stars, but you do need conference level talent and in college it helps to have some sort of system that you can teach, execute and resort to when you need a basket or a stop. Skinner was close to ideal for BC in that he had a good eye for talented, self-motivated players and could adapt an offense in the flex to different skills (the Bell flex was not as tight as the Dudley/Smith). His problems were that he never focused enough on D and when the talent underachieved (ironically with his highest rated recruiting class), Gene took the opportunity to can him.

Donahue was too overconfident and too much of a control freak. His players checked out and he did not have a good enough eye for talent. See telling Heslip to take a hike, Kris Dunn, Niang, etc. Also like Skinner, his teams never played D. The offense would have been fine with better players.

There is so much wrong with Christian right now, I don't know if any of us can point to one problem. Not enough talent, checked out players, not dealing with Carter and having no idea what to do on offense. The D is getting better, so I have a little hope. Using the 2-3 as a base is not a bad idea. Now just hope that these kids get better quickly.

are you thinking of Bryce Cotton instead of Kris Dunn?

[twballgame9]

Atl, what is Christian's offense? Is it drive and dish? Motion? I can't tell. It seems like a perpetual weave until there are five seconds left on the shot clock and then some ill advised shot most of the time.

They run weave about 25% of the time - it's a stupid offense. He also runs a ton of pick and roll. They also run some motion.

[TobaccoRoadEagle]

sounds like the recently added a wrinkle of pick and roll into a tree

[DavidGordonsFoot]

checked out players

There are a lot of problems, but I don't think this is one of them.

[ATLeagle]

checked out players

There are a lot of problems, but I don't think this is one of them.

Some of these games it sure seemed like it. A few you can blame on Chipotle but not all of them.

[twballgame9]

I don't think the players are checked out at all. I was there Saturday.

Not to mention that theory flies in the face of your "getting better on defense" theory. Defense is mostly effort.

The team stinks because 2 of the best players are hurt, and the team is reliant on freshman and 2 seniors that aren't great at basketball. They may look a little lethargic at times on offense because they are waiting for the one possession that Carter might pass the rock.

[BCSUPERFAN22]

You have either ignored my salient points or you lack reading comprehension skills or perhaps both. What you have written isn't even worth responding to at this point because you have failed to address my argument. And your point that Christian's superiority or equal standing is proven by virtue of the fact that he has a better record coaching at two of the power teams within his conference than Schmidt does coaching at two programs that play at a significant disadvantage vis a vis the rest of their respective conferences is fucktarded. It would be like arguing that Roy Williams is a better coach than Brad Stevens--I mean hey, the numbers don't lie, right?

Look man, i don't really want to go into this anymore, I completely got your "point", Im just pointing out that what your saying is based completely on him being an alum.

You argue that BC could have had him cheap but complain that they cheaped out on Christian. You point to his success at previous jobs, when Christian had at least equal (and he has had better) success at his previous stops. You point to his ability to bring in JUCO's when BC doesn't allow that. Its a moot point because BC is stuck with Christian (for better or worse), but to say that Schmidt is/was a better candidate is ridiculous. Schmidt being an alum is literally the only thing that differentiates him from Christian. Both were/are moderately successful mid-major coaches. But for you to say "but Jesus Christ how did Bates not hire him over Christian? He was an alum, who would have been dirt cheap and has a better resume than Christian by every objective measure." is dumb.

[eepstein0]

I don't think the players are checked out at all. I was there Saturday.

Not to mention that theory flies in the face of your "getting better on defense" theory. Defense is mostly effort.

The team stinks because 2 of the best players are hurt, and the team is reliant on freshman and 2 seniors that aren't great at basketball. They may look a little lethargic at times on offense because they are waiting for the one possession that Carter might pass the rock.

It's not effort, it's being bad. You can debate the reasons they are bad. There's been one or two games where the effort sucked in Califonia.

I'm convinced a huge part of it is Eli Carter.

[eepstein0]

You have either ignored my salient points or you lack reading comprehension skills or perhaps both. What you have written isn't even worth responding to at this point because you have failed to address my argument. And your point that Christian's superiority or equal standing is proven by virtue of the fact that he has a better record coaching at two of the power teams within his conference than Schmidt does coaching at two programs that play at a significant disadvantage vis a vis the rest of their respective conferences is fucktarded. It would be like arguing that Roy Williams is a better coach than Brad Stevens--I mean hey, the numbers don't lie, right?

Look man, i don't really want to go into this anymore, I completely got your "point", Im just pointing out that what your saying is based completely on him being an alum.

You argue that BC could have had him cheap but complain that they cheaped out on Christian. You point to his success at previous jobs, when Christian had at least equal (and he has had better) success at his previous stops. You point to his ability to bring in JUCO's when BC doesn't allow that. Its a moot point because BC is stuck with Christian (for better or worse), but to say that Schmidt is/was a better candidate is ridiculous. Schmidt being an alum is literally the only thing that differentiates him from Christian. Both were/are moderately successful mid-major coaches. But for you to say "but Jesus Christ how did Bates not hire him over Christian? He was an alum, who would have been dirt cheap and has a better resume than Christian by every objective measure." is dumb.

It's this. They are the same. Schmidt also sounds retarded at actual coaching, no thank you

[ILikeBC]

Can we get a real coach anytime soon? Someone who can land players that other teams actually want?

[eepstein0]

Can we get a real coach anytime soon? Someone who can land players that other teams actually want?

The only player on this roster that JC recruited that didn't have high major (ACC, SEC or Pac12) scholarship offers is Mezinkas. Same goes for next year as well.

So your point is stupid as well

[Dick Rosenthal]

You have either ignored my salient points or you lack reading comprehension skills or perhaps both. What you have written isn't even worth responding to at this point because you have failed to address my argument. And your point that Christian's superiority or equal standing is proven by virtue of the fact that he has a better record coaching at two of the power teams within his conference than Schmidt does coaching at two programs that play at a significant disadvantage vis a vis the rest of their respective conferences is fucktarded. It would be like arguing that Roy Williams is a better coach than Brad Stevens--I mean hey, the numbers don't lie, right?

Look man, i don't really want to go into this anymore, I completely got your "point", Im just pointing out that what your saying is based completely on him being an alum.

You argue that BC could have had him cheap but complain that they cheaped out on Christian. You point to his success at previous jobs, when Christian had at least equal (and he has had better) success at his previous stops. You point to his ability to bring in JUCO's when BC doesn't allow that. Its a moot point because BC is stuck with Christian (for better or worse), but to say that Schmidt is/was a better candidate is ridiculous. Schmidt being an alum is literally the only thing that differentiates him from Christian. Both were/are moderately successful mid-major coaches. But for you to say "but Jesus Christ how did Bates not hire him over Christian? He was an alum, who would have been dirt cheap and has a better resume than Christian by every objective measure." is dumb.

It's this. They are the same. Schmidt also sounds retarded at actual coaching, no thank you

Your Colby is showing again. My point was not that he is an alum. My argument is he did a much better job at St Bonnies and Robert Morris than Christian did at either TCU or either of his MAC stops--which he did and it is indisputable based on the historical norms at the programs they coached at. Think of it as coaching WAR--Schmidt has coached Bonnies and RMU to levels well above there historical norms over the past 30 years, while Christian was actually below at Kent St and at the historical average at Ohio.

My only point in saying he was dirt cheap is that given how fucktarded our administration is, if Schmidt was more expensive it might be disqualifying. The alum part would only be considered if all things were equal, but they weren't and they aren't.

[twballgame9]

Not for nothing, but JC was only below par at Kent State when compared with one of his current assistants.

[twballgame9]

On a side note, holy crap Rob Senderoff is the HC at kent now.

[longdistanceeagle]

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you cannot make up your own facts. Kent State in JC's years there made the NCAA tourney twice. He had the highest winning percentage in the history of the MAC and only increased that when at Ohio. I am not sure you can say he was below the norm. In his last year there they were in the Top 25 and had a 9 seed in the tourney. His first year there, after having graduated 3 key members of the previous team that went to the tourney, they lost in the MAC to Central Michigan and Chris Kaman. And that year they beat BC. Complain all you want, but don't distort the truth.

At TCU he was asked to get an awful program competitive in the Mountain West. In his 4th year there they were, defeating 3 ranked teams (UVa, New Mwxico, and UNLV). He had a 1st team player, Hank Thorns, the 6th man in the MWC, Amric Fields, and the Newcomer of the Year (Keion Anderson). Then they moved to the Big 12 and for several reasons, none of which need to be disclosed, he went to Ohio. He would tell you that the approach to rebuild there could have been different, but he would have been fine if TCU stayed in the MWC.

Now, Mr. Rosenthal, root all you wnt for Mr. Schmidt, complain all you want about JC, but keep your facts straight. And, yes, I am a friend of his.

[twballgame9]

Then they moved to the Big 12 and for several reasons, none of which need to be disclosed, he went to Ohio. He would tell you that the approach to rebuild there could have been different, but he would have been fine if TCU stayed in the MWC.

I don't disagree with your analysis of his WAC-level prowess, and I am not on a witch hunt like many others. But it is the above statement that concerns me. It sounds like he was upset that he moved to the big time and blames that for the failures at TCU. Not sure how that gels with a projection of future success in the ACC

[longdistanceeagle]

It was the MAC not the WAC, but your thought isn't what led to him leaving. He isn't blaming anyone, bit, as I said, his reasons for leaving have nothing to do with success, or a lack of it. Sorry, but that is privileged information. Judge him on what he does trying to resurrect this program. What happened in the past has no bearing on the present. I was just trying to set the historical record straight.

[twballgame9]

It was the MAC not the WAC, but your thought isn't what led to him leaving. He isn't blaming anyone, bit, as I said, his reasons for leaving have nothing to do with success, or a lack of it. Sorry, but that is privileged information. Judge him on what he does trying to resurrect this program. What happened in the past has no bearing on the present. I was just trying to set the historical record straight.

I said "WAC-level" to be a sarcastic prick, and you haven't been here long enough to get the joke, but glad you focused on that to deflect the legit question about your pal. You make it sound like he ran away from the program jumping to the next level. You refuse to divulge his actual motive for taking a step backward. I'll continue to draw the logical conclusion. And as far as judging him on what he does to resurrect this program, right now it's world-class, epic, once-in-a-generation level of abysmal. At least I am one fan with a little hope and patience.

[TobaccoRoadEagle]

i think this article covers some of the topics that lde is alluding to

http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.com/mac-engel/2012/04/tcus-jim-christian-all-but-gone-time-to-start-the-jamie-dixon-talk.html

but this message board's theories are much more entertaining and seem to be in line with some of the suggestions of our message board

http://www.scout.com/college/air-force/forums/1550-hoops-hockey-more/8876834-tcu-s-jim-christian-leaves-tcu-for-ohio-u

[Iggle]

got me at work. and somehow that was the least masturbatory thing in this meeting

[claver2010]

DAMNIT

[DavidGordonsFoot]

got me, too. eff you tre.

[ILikeBC]

So can we get back on track to discussing how the hell Jimmy Mac is gonna win at BC?

I think he's a tier 1 good person and all, but that doesn't mean he can win in the ACC.

[ILikeBC]

Is that type of coaching what made Jim Christian so good?

[twballgame9]

Is that type of coaching what made Jim Christian so good?

Other than playing Carter and that last play, his coaching was phenomenal tonight. They looked like an ACC team. Still pissed about the first two points, however.

[Dick Rosenthal]

Sorry long distance eagle your friend is a shitty coach who is out of his depth and an excrable person as well. If you are a close buddy of his ask him about what he told the Kents down at TCU and whether he was truthful. To your other points, he did underperform the historical norm at Kent State--compare his record to the others during that window. Middle of the pack. At Ohio he had one good year in a down year in the conference. Otherwise he is at the historical norm--lest anyone forget Ohio boast double-digit NCAA appearances.

And as I said before, this isn't about Schmidt. The record reflects that I wanted somebody bigger than Schmidt or your pal. This is about the fact that Brad Bates is a terrible AD who makes small timey hires of guys who did nothing of particular note from a third rate conference--4th rate in basketball. Christian is the basketball version of the Dazzler only apparently more dishonest.

By the way, Schmidt and company locked up an at large bid to the NCAAs by pummeling St Joes.

[twballgame9]

Christian definitely did not underperform at Kent - other than compared to the one year that his current assistant coached there.

I'm okay with Schmidt, too, but he's not going to be coaching rings around anyone anytime soon. The Bonnies won because a guy channelled Ty Rice and was nailing 30 foot jump shots all night for 47.