Cesspool

[BCLou]

They're both rookies at their positions irrespective of age. If you think the Clemson loss was the result of his gameplan you're on drugs worse than Jeff Spicoli. There was no "prevent D" against Wake Forest. Skinner is a good QB and BC has no pass rush neither of which is Spaz's fault. Even with 2 first-round draft picks on the DL there wasn't much of a pass rush.

You can bitch and moan all you want about Spaz but I see improvement. He deserves more slack than he's getting.

You're kidding me right? The Clemson gameplan was ATROCIOUS. There was absolutely a prevent D against Wake. Did you watch either game? Riley Skinner may have an iconic wang, but he is not a good QB. And the defense not having a pass rush is somehow not the fault of the guy who was the defensive coordinator for a fucking decade? Really?

Read what I wrote about the Clemson game. That loss was not due to the gameplan. Clemson was better on defense, offense and special teams. Did Spaz's strategy include an OL who didn't block anyone? Did it call for the starting QB to go 4-for-20?

Anyone who's thrown for 8,000+ yards in his career on some mediocre teams is a good QB. If you want to blame Spaz for the lack of an effective pass rush last year I could agree with you but now that DL is missing 2 first-round draft picks. Would you expect it to be any better?

[twballgame9]

Did someone say that there was no prevent D in the Wake Forest game, that Riley Skinner was just good? Well where the fuck was he for the first 54 minutes of the game?

Give me a fucking break. You can take it easy on players until they develop, but coaches are accountable from Day 1. Spaz has spent 40 years around this game, presumably enough time to a) not fuck up a world class OLine by switching schemes (Clemson) and b) not play fucking prevent defense (WF).

[buconvict]

But anyway, when did Logan become such a genius?

When he turned Jeff Blake and David Garrard into NFL stars after starting out as raw, unwanted, athletic QBs. If I actually need to explain that to you it just shows how little you know.

[buconvict]

They're both rookies at their positions irrespective of age. If you think the Clemson loss was the result of his gameplan you're on drugs worse than Jeff Spicoli. There was no "prevent D" against Wake Forest. Skinner is a good QB and BC has no pass rush neither of which is Spaz's fault. Even with 2 first-round draft picks on the DL there wasn't much of a pass rush.

You can bitch and moan all you want about Spaz but I see improvement. He deserves more slack than he's getting.

You're kidding me right? The Clemson gameplan was ATROCIOUS. There was absolutely a prevent D against Wake. Did you watch either game? Riley Skinner may have an iconic wang, but he is not a good QB. And the defense not having a pass rush is somehow not the fault of the guy who was the defensive coordinator for a fucking decade? Really?

Read what I wrote about the Clemson game. That loss was not due to the gameplan. Clemson was better on defense, offense and special teams. Did Spaz's strategy include an OL who didn't block anyone? Did it call for the starting QB to go 4-for-20?

Anyone who's thrown for 8,000+ yards in his career on some mediocre teams is a good QB. If you want to blame Spaz for the lack of an effective pass rush last year I could agree with you but now that DL is missing 2 first-round draft picks. Would you expect it to be any better?

I can't have a discussion with someone who is this dumb. I just can't. Sorry.

[talon]

Read what I wrote about the Clemson game. That loss was not due to the gameplan. Clemson was better on defense, offense and special teams. Did Spaz's strategy include an OL who didn't block anyone? Did it call for the starting QB to go 4-for-20?

You say gameplan/scheme had nothing to do with it? So, I guess that means you think the offensive line just got together in the huddle and said "you know what would be fun to try one game? not blocking anybody!"

[apbc12]

I don't disagree with those who express serious reservations about the coaching staff, but I do want someone to explain to me what they saw in Davis that gave them any indication that he might one day be a good QB. Logan has indeed had success coaching QBs in the past, but I just didn't see any future in Davis. I mean, for God's sake, the title of this thread is "Cesspool." That's how highly Davis was thought of before he flunked out.

[MilitantEagle]

But anyway, when did Logan become such a genius?

When he turned Jeff Blake and David Garrard into NFL stars after starting out as raw, unwanted, athletic QBs. If I actually need to explain that to you it just shows how little you know.

Jeff Blake and David Garrard as NFL stars??? That is incorrect. NFL players, yes. Stars, no.

Logan's playcalling was suspect in about 75% of the games last year. The majority of the non-merrymen thought so anyway. I remember reading quite a few rants courtesy of twballgame and others.

[RegalBCeagle]

I don't disagree with those who express serious reservations about the coaching staff, but I do want someone to explain to me what they saw in Davis that gave them any indication that he might one day be a good QB. Logan has indeed had success coaching QBs in the past, but I just didn't see any future in Davis. I mean, for God's sake, the title of this thread is "Cesspool." That's how highly Davis was thought of before he flunked out.

His throws were strong and crisp. He showed accuracy. His decision making was solid. His footwork was good. His speed and elusiveness were very good. His ball-handling was super-awesome.

He fucking blew. While I think you can coach some of these things up, there appeared to be way too many "issues" with DD. At the end of the day, he was good enough coming out of high school to be a D-1 athlete. He just wasn't a very good one. I'll if he makes his way back into a D-1 program and leads that team to glory, but I have tons of faith it will never happen.

[ZBC2001]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

I still amazes me that Jags is accused of being bad at recruiting QBs after TOBy didn't even give out a scholarship at the position for THREE FUCKING YEARS.

Die Merrymen. Die.

Can't they both be considered bad?

No. I haven't seen Marscovetra develop, nor did I ever get to see what Cesspool or Tuggle would've become if they'd had 4 years to work with Steve Logan, a guy who has developed some seriously talented QBs. How many people can tell me how good David Garrard or Jeff Blake were during their RS Sophomore seasons?

So it's not the player, it's Logan's ability to develop a QB?

No, I think that Logan is able to take a kid with certain talents and develop him into a better player than other QB coaches. Sort of the way that a child who goes to Belmont Hill will probably be molded into a better student than someone who goes to PS 203 in Mattapan. The player has to have a certain skill set and listen and work hard, but other than that, coaching plays a huge role.

Then recruiting doesn't matter. Logan should have made any halfway decent player into a D1 QB. So the argument that Jags was a great recruiter at the QB position is silly. I think he whiffed on bigger QBs and had to settle for Chris Johnson and DD. Neither of whom were going to amount to anything. Tuggle, however, could have done quite well in Jags' and Logan's system.

And for the record - I think Logan was an asset to BC and could develop QBs who had potential while DD sucked and wasn't going to improve into an ACC quarterback. Ever.

[buconvict]

But anyway, when did Logan become such a genius?

When he turned Jeff Blake and David Garrard into NFL stars after starting out as raw, unwanted, athletic QBs. If I actually need to explain that to you it just shows how little you know.

Jeff Blake and David Garrard as NFL stars??? That is incorrect. NFL players, yes. Stars, no.

Logan's playcalling was suspect in about 75% of the games last year. The majority of the non-merrymen thought so anyway. I remember reading quite a few rants courtesy of twballgame and others.

In 2007, David Garrard led the friggin Jaguars to an 11-5 record. 18 TDs, only 3 picks. QB rating over 100 for the season. If not for a dropped pass by Jimmy Smith, would've ended the Pats' perfect season in the playoffs on the road. Jeff Blake was a Pro Bowler who threw for over 21,000 yards in his career.

So, as I said, they were stars. In any event, Logan is a brilliant QB coach.

[b0mberMan]

I think he whiffed on bigger QBs and had to settle for Chris Johnson and DD.

Dude, Jags and Logan got their jobs with less than 4 weeks to go before National Signing Day. They didn't have time to "whiff" on anyone the year they took DD and Johnson. There wasn't anyone to "whiff" on at that point. They grabbed two flyers because they needed some bodies at the QB position. Totally unfair to hold them accountable for the QB recruiting in that class.

[buconvict]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

I still amazes me that Jags is accused of being bad at recruiting QBs after TOBy didn't even give out a scholarship at the position for THREE FUCKING YEARS.

Die Merrymen. Die.

Can't they both be considered bad?

No. I haven't seen Marscovetra develop, nor did I ever get to see what Cesspool or Tuggle would've become if they'd had 4 years to work with Steve Logan, a guy who has developed some seriously talented QBs. How many people can tell me how good David Garrard or Jeff Blake were during their RS Sophomore seasons?

So it's not the player, it's Logan's ability to develop a QB?

No, I think that Logan is able to take a kid with certain talents and develop him into a better player than other QB coaches. Sort of the way that a child who goes to Belmont Hill will probably be molded into a better student than someone who goes to PS 203 in Mattapan. The player has to have a certain skill set and listen and work hard, but other than that, coaching plays a huge role.

Then recruiting doesn't matter. Logan should have made any halfway decent player into a D1 QB. So the argument that Jags was a great recruiter at the QB position is silly. I think he whiffed on bigger QBs and had to settle for Chris Johnson and DD. Neither of whom were going to amount to anything. Tuggle, however, could have done quite well in Jags' and Logan's system.

And for the record - I think Logan was an asset to BC and could develop QBs who had potential while DD sucked and wasn't going to improve into an ACC quarterback. Ever.

Recruiting does matter. The coach needs to find players who fit what he's trying to do. He needs to have a certain set of attributes; speed, height, athleticism, arm strength, etc in order to be molded into a good QB. RichRod couldn't win anything with Ryan Mallett, so he told him to transfer. Then he brings in Tate Forcier, puts him in a system where he can succeed, and he turns into the white Vince Young.

[ZBC2001]

I think he whiffed on bigger QBs and had to settle for Chris Johnson and DD.

Dude, Jags and Logan got their jobs with less than 4 weeks to go before National Signing Day. They didn't have time to "whiff" on anyone the year they took DD and Johnson. There wasn't anyone to "whiff" on at that point. They grabbed two flyers because they needed some bodies at the QB position. Totally unfair to hold them accountable for the QB recruiting in that class.

You are right that their first recruiting class shouldn't be their measure of success, so "whiff" may have been the wrong word. But to use DD's performance at a JC to say that Jags was a great QB recruiter and that DD is a great QB is tenuous at best. And that is the claim being made at the start of this thread.

After seeing Tuggle and Uncle Dave, both look better than DD did last year.

[MilitantEagle]

But anyway, when did Logan become such a genius?

When he turned Jeff Blake and David Garrard into NFL stars after starting out as raw, unwanted, athletic QBs. If I actually need to explain that to you it just shows how little you know.

Jeff Blake and David Garrard as NFL stars??? That is incorrect. NFL players, yes. Stars, no.

Logan's playcalling was suspect in about 75% of the games last year. The majority of the non-merrymen thought so anyway. I remember reading quite a few rants courtesy of twballgame and others.

In 2007, David Garrard led the friggin Jaguars to an 11-5 record. 18 TDs, only 3 picks. QB rating over 100 for the season. If not for a dropped pass by Jimmy Smith, would've ended the Pats' perfect season in the playoffs on the road. Jeff Blake was a Pro Bowler who threw for over 21,000 yards in his career.

So, as I said, they were stars. In any event, Logan is a brilliant QB coach.

I will call them NFL starters who had their moments. That is as far as I will go when it comes to Jeff Blake and David Garrard.

But you still haven't addressed my main point, which is that Jags did not have much success on the Qb recruiting trail. It was a problem. HJS and others have always said that it's not just stars that you should look at, but who their top targets are and whether they land those recruits. Jags did not come close to landing any of his top QB targets. Moreover, the star ratings were not there for the guys he ended up getting. The offense under Logan was, at best, mediocre last year. Have you ever admitted that Jags and staff had some weaknesses? Not as many as TOB, but they were present.

[twballgame9]

But anyway, when did Logan become such a genius?

When he turned Jeff Blake and David Garrard into NFL stars after starting out as raw, unwanted, athletic QBs. If I actually need to explain that to you it just shows how little you know.

Jeff Blake and David Garrard as NFL stars??? That is incorrect. NFL players, yes. Stars, no.

Logan's playcalling was suspect in about 75% of the games last year. The majority of the non-merrymen thought so anyway. I remember reading quite a few rants courtesy of twballgame and others.

In 2007, David Garrard led the friggin Jaguars to an 11-5 record. 18 TDs, only 3 picks. QB rating over 100 for the season. If not for a dropped pass by Jimmy Smith, would've ended the Pats' perfect season in the playoffs on the road. Jeff Blake was a Pro Bowler who threw for over 21,000 yards in his career.

So, as I said, they were stars. In any event, Logan is a brilliant QB coach.

Beat me to it.

[hansen]

I don't disagree with those who express serious reservations about the coaching staff, but I do want someone to explain to me what they saw in Davis that gave them any indication that he might one day be a good QB. Logan has indeed had success coaching QBs in the past, but I just didn't see any future in Davis. I mean, for God's sake, the title of this thread is "Cesspool." That's how highly Davis was thought of before he flunked out.

His throws were strong and crisp. He showed accuracy. His decision making was solid. His footwork was good. His speed and elusiveness were very good. His ball-handling was super-awesome.

He fucking blew. While I think you can coach some of these things up, there appeared to be way too many "issues" with DD. At the end of the day, he was good enough coming out of high school to be a D-1 athlete. He just wasn't a very good one. I'll if he makes his way back into a D-1 program and leads that team to glory, but I have tons of faith it will never happen.

i think it's great that whenever anyone uses the word "issues" on this site we put it in quotes.

[HJS]

They're both rookies at their positions irrespective of age. If you think the Clemson loss was the result of his gameplan you're on drugs worse than Jeff Spicoli. There was no "prevent D" against Wake Forest. Skinner is a good QB and BC has no pass rush neither of which is Spaz's fault. Even with 2 first-round draft picks on the DL there wasn't much of a pass rush.

You can bitch and moan all you want about Spaz but I see improvement. He deserves more slack than he's getting.

You're kidding me right? The Clemson gameplan was ATROCIOUS. There was absolutely a prevent D against Wake. Did you watch either game? Riley Skinner may have an iconic wang, but he is not a good QB. And the defense not having a pass rush is somehow not the fault of the guy who was the defensive coordinator for a fucking decade? Really?

Read what I wrote about the Clemson game. That loss was not due to the gameplan. Clemson was better on defense, offense and special teams. Did Spaz's strategy include an OL who didn't block anyone? Did it call for the starting QB to go 4-for-20?

Anyone who's thrown for 8,000+ yards in his career on some mediocre teams is a good QB. If you want to blame Spaz for the lack of an effective pass rush last year I could agree with you but now that DL is missing 2 first-round draft picks. Would you expect it to be any better?

I can't have a discussion with someone who is this dumb. I just can't. Sorry.

Now you know how I felt every day over the last year or so before Zander kicked me off of EagleAction.

Merrymen Mantra: 1997-2006 - Players suck... Toby is teh awesome...
Merrymen Mantra: 2007-2008 - Coaches suck... Toby's players are teh awesome...
Merrymen Mantra: 2009-???? - Players suck... Toby's Disciple is teh awesome...

[buconvict]

But anyway, when did Logan become such a genius?

When he turned Jeff Blake and David Garrard into NFL stars after starting out as raw, unwanted, athletic QBs. If I actually need to explain that to you it just shows how little you know.

Jeff Blake and David Garrard as NFL stars??? That is incorrect. NFL players, yes. Stars, no.

Logan's playcalling was suspect in about 75% of the games last year. The majority of the non-merrymen thought so anyway. I remember reading quite a few rants courtesy of twballgame and others.

In 2007, David Garrard led the friggin Jaguars to an 11-5 record. 18 TDs, only 3 picks. QB rating over 100 for the season. If not for a dropped pass by Jimmy Smith, would've ended the Pats' perfect season in the playoffs on the road. Jeff Blake was a Pro Bowler who threw for over 21,000 yards in his career.

So, as I said, they were stars. In any event, Logan is a brilliant QB coach.

I will call them NFL starters who had their moments. That is as far as I will go when it comes to Jeff Blake and David Garrard.

But you still haven't addressed my main point, which is that Jags did not have much success on the Qb recruiting trail. It was a problem. HJS and others have always said that it's not just stars that you should look at, but who their top targets are and whether they land those recruits. Jags did not come close to landing any of his top QB targets. Moreover, the star ratings were not there for the guys he ended up getting. The offense under Logan was, at best, mediocre last year. Have you ever admitted that Jags and staff had some weaknesses? Not as many as TOB, but they were present.

I seem to recall Jags coming pretty close on getting Jacory Harris.

Listen, Justin Tuggle is a RS Freshman. As in FRESHMAN. Give the kid some time to develop. If he had a chance to study under Logan for 5 years, I have no doubt that he would've become a good QB. Logan would've let him run. Logan wouldn't have ruined his throwing motion. Logan would've taught him how to play the position. Of this I'm certain.

Logan's playcalling was questionable at times last year, but I didn't have any major problems with it. Considering that he was working with Chris Crane, I think he did as well as he could. I think Jags' defensive coordinator set the program back 5 years when he let Maryland's backup QB Chris Turner tear BC apart with almost 500 yards of offense and 5 touchdowns. I think the special teams were bad.

People will probably laugh at me for this, but I thought that Jags was an almost flawless head coach. The attitude he brought in, the blocking scheme overhaul, his ability to find kids like DeLeon Gause, Montel Harris, Brad Newman, Anthony Costanzo, and others, and the job he did turning BC from an 8-4 team to the #2 ranked team in the nation, a team that beat ranked opponents instead of rolling over whenever one came to town, and taking the team to the ACCCG with DD as their QB... it all adds up to a pretty fucking awesome coach.

When Jags was fired for being ambitious and replaced with an ambitionless GDF puppet, I recall stating that BC went from having the best HC in the ACC to having the 2nd worst (behind Al Groh). I still believe that. Jags was the shit. And he WON GAMES.

[joemack13]

I hate our coaches. I expected the defense to be mediocre, but I expected the offense to take at least a minor step up, and I didn't expect us to try to run out the clock starting at the 7:00 min mark. Pathetic - BC is mediocre at best, thanks oops i crapped my pants

[HJS]

I think Jags had his flaws. I think that, over time, those flaws would start to be a little more evident. That said, he was the best head coach we have had since TC and probably one of the top 5 we've ever had.
As for Logan... he is a freaking virtuoso when you compare to what we had before and after him. Christ! He took an offense with less talent and brought them to the ACCCG last year. This year, we couldn't achieve a 55th yard in an entire game against Clemson.
It just isn't worth the dumbing down of this board. There is literally no way any of us can save those who believe that the George Welch Coaching Tree is the better than Jags & Co.

[MilitantEagle]

It just isn't worth the dumbing down of this board. There is literally no way any of us can save those who believe that the George Welch Coaching Tree is the better than Jags & Co.

HJS, nobody in this thread said that. I certainly do not think it. You are simply reverting to that baseless accusation because you made a ridiculous assessment of the "new" Dominique Davis after one JuCo game which you did not see.

[BCEagle05]

Look, I think Logan was a good OC, but it's slightly ridiculous to give him much in the way of credit for getting us to the ACCCG last year- we got there because we had a freakishly talented defense, and we got there in spite of the offense, NOT because of it.

[talon]

DD was completely raw when Jags took a flier on him.

He was the worst starting QB I've ever seen at BC. He was also a redshirt freshman when he was tossed into the lion's den. Had he worked with Logan for a couple seasons and played as a Jr. and Sr., I don't think he would have been the disaster he was last year.

[joemack13]

Our offense was crap because Crane got injured. He actually developed very nicely from the beginning to the end of the season.

And I do give some credit to Jags for the defense now that I see we're back to the SpazWOW cushion. I didn't notice it in the Clemson game... I hope I'm wrong - I'd hate to think our coaches are making adjustments that make us worse.

[BCEagle05]

Crane was a crapshoot throughout the season, injury and no injury. Even during FSU when he was 'turning the corner', he still coughed the ball up a few times.

Some of the revisionist history on this board is incredible. NO ONE was happy with our offense last year, and for good reason. The fact that DD is now tearing up the JUCO ranks means jack shit about what he would have done this year at BC. And frankly, it's completely irrelevant, because the kid wasn't even smart enough to keep himself eligible in school.

Would it be nice to still have Logan? Yes. But let's not let some wishful thinking cloud the fact that we were offensively inept (especially at QB) for the majority of last season.

[Eagledom]

[quote="buconvict"]I think Jags' defensive coordinator set the program back 5 years when he let Maryland's backup QB Chris Turner tear BC apart with almost 500 yards of offense and 5 touchdowns. [quote]

That game sucked. But (a) it meant nothing in the big sceme of things because we still went to the ACC championship, and (b) how exactly did it set the program back 5 years?

Jags was a very good coach, but people exaggerate his accomplishments greatly. It didn't take a "great" coach to get BC to the ACC title game in 2007...and lets not forget the 2 WTF losses after BC got to 8-0. Not to mention the loss to a VERY beatable VTech team in the title game. And last year was a pretty ho-hum 9-4 year in a pretty mediocre ACC.

[joemack13]

I was happy with the offense for the 4 games before Crane got injured(Clemson, ND, FSU, Wake). So that is false

[b0mberMan]

I was happy with the offense for the 4 games before Crane got injured(Clemson, ND, FSU, Wake). So that is false

I would say they got it to a point where Crane wasn't getting int he way of a victory at that point (still TOs, though). But that was an improvement over the shaky start to the year (UNC was the worst) and when DD was at the helm.

[joemack13]

2007 we had a weaker defense than 2008 and little to no running game(Callendar was practically a receiver). Matt Ryan was our team. There was dissappointment with Jags and Logan but I always thought they did well with what they had.

[BCEagle05]

Bomber is right- we managed to get it together to the point where Crane wasn't directly contributing points to the other team, and we saw success as a result, but that was because we had a ridiculously good defense, not because he was on the verge of turning into a great QB.