Cesspool

[HJS]

b) you already admitted several months ago that the QB recruiting was subpar under Jags. Now Davis tears it up in one JuCo game and everything has changed??
c) Nobody thinks Jags was submarining the school, he was just bad at QB recruiting. He brought in Davis, Tuggle and Marscovetra. Davis I can excuse because it was a difficult situation, but Tuggle and Marscovetra were not great pulls. I think Tuggle had a Miss St. offer. Marsco had none.

It's okay, HJS. We all have our weaknesses. Jags isn't any different.

(b) I certainly believe Jags could've done better at recruiting QB. In particular, I think him and Logan didn't realize how difficult it would be to recruit a Logan-style QB to BC (both because of the uniqueness of BC and the increased competition for such players as everyone want to now run the spread). That said, I don't think he "gave up" and "couldn't be bothered" in recruiting the position. I will give them credit for identifying talent (see players like Jacory Harris) and being on them before the world came in and stole them. I will also say that Tuggle and Marscovetra as back-ups to the A-list have proven to be decent.
(c) PLENTY have said that Jags sucked at recruiting and that is the reason he HAD to go.

For the record, while I liked Jags, I never thought he was the best we could do... or that he was some virtuoso. I actually thought that his success was PROOF that just about any decent coach could have this program performing at a very high level. I believe TOB was an average to slightly below average coach and think that Spaz is proving worse. As anyone can remember, I wouldn't have cared about the Jags termination if GDF was then able to go out and make a real hire as a replacement. The turtling up and going with Spaz is what did him and this program in.

[RegalBCeagle]

Cesspool sucked and will continue to suck.

How many kids come out of JUCO to be great players? I'm sure there are some, but I'm sure the percentage is ridiculously low considering the use of JUCO as a tool to get into regular programs. Paul Pete worked out great for BC, and could've been better if TOBY had looked past handsomeness, but Boek is probably more the norm for JUCO players.

[mod6A]

i think he sucked cause he couldn't hold onto the damn ball.

how many times was he stripped?

i watched him in tampa. it was terrible. everytime there was contact he seemed to lose the ball and the opposing D was going in for a TD.

would he have improved? sure. probably. don't most players improve over 4 years?



matt ryan was servicable in that temple game. there were a ton of drops in the first quarter of that syracuse game before things got out of hand. that one was not on ryan. no way.

[mod6A]

also.

he failed out.

he did not want to do the work to stay at BC. even with the academic support players get. he flunked out.

[HJS]

matt ryan was servicable in that temple game. there were a ton of drops in the first quarter of that syracuse game before things got out of hand. that one was not on ryan. no way.

Agreed. Matty didn't lose us the Cuse game... Spaz did and we made him the head coach.
While Matty was OK against Temple and sucked against Cuse. DD was good against MD and bad against VT and Vandy. MD and Vandy were slightly better than PaulP's last Cuse team. VT was MUCH better than that Cuse team. The point simply is that you can't really make ANY definitive statements about his future (or that of Tuggle's) based on the limited RSF exposure.

As for the failing out thing... I simply am not addressing it. It really has nothing to do with the "Jags doesn't recruit QBs oh noes!" BJ Raji was in academic peril his entire time at BC and had to sit his penultimate season at BC. I ain't gonna disown him as an alum. I will say this... the thing that bothered me most about Davis was his lack of leadership. I have always been of the opinion that your QB needs to be vocal and not just a lead-by-example guy if he has any chance of being special.

[BCLou]

I will also say that Tuggle and Marscovetra as back-ups to the A-list have proven to be decent.

On what basis do you conclude that Marscovetra is decent?

I believe TOB was an average to slightly below average coach and think that Spaz is proving worse.

Spaz has been head coach for 4 games. Despite the hand-wringing from some on this board he hasn't proved a thing one way or the other.

DD had a ceiling and it was low. Did you see Shinskie's last TD pass on Saturday? DD couldn't have completed that if he and Larmond were the only two players on the field.

DD would probably have improved under Logan but if Helen Keller had improved her vision would you want to give her a driver's license?

[buconvict]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

I still amazes me that Jags is accused of being bad at recruiting QBs after TOBy didn't even give out a scholarship at the position for THREE FUCKING YEARS.

Die Merrymen. Die.

[mod6A]

i don;t think anyone is writing marco off. shinskie has the tepid hand. run with it.

[BCLou]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

If you're talking to me I'd like you to point out where I called Marscovetra a failure.

[twballgame9]

i don;t think anyone is writing marco off. shinskie has the tepid hand. run with it.

Speaking of "run" with it, MAKE SURE YOU FUCKING RUN THAT PLAY THAT FSU CAN'T FUCKING STOP. AND DO IT WITH THE RUNNING QB YOU TARDS.

[mod6A]

good point.

[ZBC2001]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

I still amazes me that Jags is accused of being bad at recruiting QBs after TOBy didn't even give out a scholarship at the position for THREE FUCKING YEARS.

Die Merrymen. Die.

Can't they both be considered bad?

[Eagledom]

HJS posts have officially become unreadable.

[twballgame9]

HJS posts have officially become unreadable.

You officially beat him in something. By about 20 days.

[talon]

HJS posts have officially become unreadable.

why are you so ashamed of yourself?

[buconvict]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

I still amazes me that Jags is accused of being bad at recruiting QBs after TOBy didn't even give out a scholarship at the position for THREE FUCKING YEARS.

Die Merrymen. Die.

Can't they both be considered bad?

No. I haven't seen Marscovetra develop, nor did I ever get to see what Cesspool or Tuggle would've become if they'd had 4 years to work with Steve Logan, a guy who has developed some seriously talented QBs. How many people can tell me how good David Garrard or Jeff Blake were during their RS Sophomore seasons?

[buconvict]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

If you're talking to me I'd like you to point out where I called Marscovetra a failure.

I'm not. It's a general perception that "Jags can't recruit QBs". Well, he recruited Mark Marscovetra, and it's impossible to tell whether or not he is a success or not. He's got a few years to make a case.

[apbc12]

BTW... forming opinions based on limited appearances during a RSF season would have forclose Matty Ryan from being in the NFL... let alone a top 3 pick. Anyone who watched Matty Ryan play against Temple and Cuse when he was a redshirt frosh would not have guessed his ultimate greatness.

Erroneous. Would I have imagined him being the runaway Rookie of the Year, universally recognized as the next NFL star? No. But when I watched the 'Cuse game, amid the disaster, I saw a kid who was poised, competitive, and had a cannon for an arm. I specifically remember telling my brother, "this kid should be really good one day."

When I watched Davis, I saw a kid who was scared shitless most of the time, sucked at running (and didn't seem to understand) the offense, and threw the ball like he was facing a 40mph headwind at all times. I specifically remember telling my other brother during the ACC championship, "I really hope to God this kid is never the starter again."

[BCdee]

When I watched Davis, I saw a kid who was scared shitless most of the time, sucked at running (and didn't seem to understand) the offense, and threw the ball like he was facing a 40mph headwind at all times. I specifically remember telling my other brother during the ACC championship, "I really hope to God this kid is never the starter again."

TOTALLY AGREE. Glad he's doing well in JUCO - but SO glad he's gone.

[h2o]

BTW... forming opinions based on limited appearances during a RSF season would have forclose Matty Ryan from being in the NFL... let alone a top 3 pick. Anyone who watched Matty Ryan play against Temple and Cuse when he was a redshirt frosh would not have guessed his ultimate greatness.

Erroneous. Would I have imagined him being the runaway Rookie of the Year, universally recognized as the next NFL star? No. But when I watched the 'Cuse game, amid the disaster, I saw a kid who was poised, competitive, and had a cannon for an arm. I specifically remember telling my brother, "this kid should be really good one day."

When I watched Davis, I saw a kid who was scared shitless most of the time, sucked at running (and didn't seem to understand) the offense, and threw the ball like he was facing a 40mph headwind at all times. I specifically remember telling my other brother during the ACC championship, "I really hope to God this kid is never the starter again."

Agree. And what really pisses me off is why, if Davis was in danger of flunking out, did Spaz and Tranq give him all the snaps with the 1st team offense in the spring? There is no way they could not known this kid wasn't in big trouble grade wise yet they had him running the 1st team offense all spring. I wonder how far along Tuggle would be if they gave the ball to him in the spring instead of Davis. It's all hindsight but WTF, did they thing they were going to be able to keep Davis eligible? WTF? A wasted spring QB wise.

[ZBC2001]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

I still amazes me that Jags is accused of being bad at recruiting QBs after TOBy didn't even give out a scholarship at the position for THREE FUCKING YEARS.

Die Merrymen. Die.

Can't they both be considered bad?

No. I haven't seen Marscovetra develop, nor did I ever get to see what Cesspool or Tuggle would've become if they'd had 4 years to work with Steve Logan, a guy who has developed some seriously talented QBs. How many people can tell me how good David Garrard or Jeff Blake were during their RS Sophomore seasons?

So it's not the player, it's Logan's ability to develop a QB?

[Eagledom]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

I still amazes me that Jags is accused of being bad at recruiting QBs after TOBy didn't even give out a scholarship at the position for THREE FUCKING YEARS.

Die Merrymen. Die.

Can't they both be considered bad?

No. I haven't seen Marscovetra develop, nor did I ever get to see what Cesspool or Tuggle would've become if they'd had 4 years to work with Steve Logan, a guy who has developed some seriously talented QBs. How many people can tell me how good David Garrard or Jeff Blake were during their RS Sophomore seasons?

So it's not the player, it's Logan's ability to develop a QB?

davis was not going to be a good QB regardless of his coach. The whole premise of this thread is stupid.

[BCLou]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

If you're talking to me I'd like you to point out where I called Marscovetra a failure.

I'm not. It's a general perception that "Jags can't recruit QBs". Well, he recruited Mark Marscovetra, and it's impossible to tell whether or not he is a success or not. He's got a few years to make a case.

How come Marscovetra has a few years to make a case yet people are convinced Spaz sucks after 3 games?

[HJS]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

If you're talking to me I'd like you to point out where I called Marscovetra a failure.

I'm not. It's a general perception that "Jags can't recruit QBs". Well, he recruited Mark Marscovetra, and it's impossible to tell whether or not he is a success or not. He's got a few years to make a case.

How come Marscovetra has a few years to make a case yet people are convinced Spaz sucks after 3 games?

(1) Marscovetra is eighteen and Spaz is 63. One has his whole life in front of him, the other behind.
(2) Spaz has been here for a dozen years... he is a known commodity. His mentor (Tobias) is also a know commodity. So, when we lose a game because he schemed to not-get-blown-out (Clemson) and when should've lost but didn't because of a miracle-mistake (in a game that was only close at the end because we played prevent O and prevent D for the last 9 minutes), it doesn't get chalked up to rookie mistakes. It evidence that he is exactly who we thought he was. Cue Denny Green.

[BCLou]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

If you're talking to me I'd like you to point out where I called Marscovetra a failure.

I'm not. It's a general perception that "Jags can't recruit QBs". Well, he recruited Mark Marscovetra, and it's impossible to tell whether or not he is a success or not. He's got a few years to make a case.

How come Marscovetra has a few years to make a case yet people are convinced Spaz sucks after 3 games?

(1) Marscovetra is eighteen and Spaz is 63. One has his whole life in front of him, the other behind.
(2) Spaz has been here for a dozen years... he is a known commodity. His mentor (Tobias) is also a know commodity. So, when we lose a game because he schemed just to not get blown-out (Clemson) and when should've-lost-but-didn't-because-of-a-miracle-mistake all because we played prevent O and prevent D for the last 9 minutes of the game, it doesn't get chalked up to rookie mistakes. It evidence that he is exactly who we thought he was. Cue Denny Green.

They're both rookies at their positions irrespective of age. If you think the Clemson loss was the result of his gameplan you're on drugs worse than Jeff Spicoli. There was no "prevent D" against Wake Forest. Skinner is a good QB and BC has no pass rush neither of which is Spaz's fault. Even with 2 first-round draft picks on the DL there wasn't much of a pass rush.

You can bitch and moan all you want about Spaz but I see improvement. He deserves more slack than he's getting.

[Eagledom]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

If you're talking to me I'd like you to point out where I called Marscovetra a failure.

I'm not. It's a general perception that "Jags can't recruit QBs". Well, he recruited Mark Marscovetra, and it's impossible to tell whether or not he is a success or not. He's got a few years to make a case.

How come Marscovetra has a few years to make a case yet people are convinced Spaz sucks after 3 games?

(1) Marscovetra is eighteen and Spaz is 63. One has his whole life in front of him, the other behind.
(2) Spaz has been here for a dozen years... he is a known commodity. His mentor (Tobias) is also a know commodity. So, when we lose a game because he schemed to not-get-blown-out (Clemson) and when should've lost but didn't because of a miracle-mistake (in a game that was only close at the end because we played prevent O and prevent D for the last 9 minutes), it doesn't get chalked up to rookie mistakes. It evidence that he is exactly who we thought he was. Cue Denny Green.

and your logic is: Spaz sucks, therefore D. Davis is AWESOME.

[buconvict]

Marsocovetra is 18 YEARS FUCKING OLD. It is IMPOSSIBLE to write him off as a failure.

I still amazes me that Jags is accused of being bad at recruiting QBs after TOBy didn't even give out a scholarship at the position for THREE FUCKING YEARS.

Die Merrymen. Die.

Can't they both be considered bad?

No. I haven't seen Marscovetra develop, nor did I ever get to see what Cesspool or Tuggle would've become if they'd had 4 years to work with Steve Logan, a guy who has developed some seriously talented QBs. How many people can tell me how good David Garrard or Jeff Blake were during their RS Sophomore seasons?

So it's not the player, it's Logan's ability to develop a QB?

No, I think that Logan is able to take a kid with certain talents and develop him into a better player than other QB coaches. Sort of the way that a child who goes to Belmont Hill will probably be molded into a better student than someone who goes to PS 203 in Mattapan. The player has to have a certain skill set and listen and work hard, but other than that, coaching plays a huge role.

[buconvict]

They're both rookies at their positions irrespective of age. If you think the Clemson loss was the result of his gameplan you're on drugs worse than Jeff Spicoli. There was no "prevent D" against Wake Forest. Skinner is a good QB and BC has no pass rush neither of which is Spaz's fault. Even with 2 first-round draft picks on the DL there wasn't much of a pass rush.

You can bitch and moan all you want about Spaz but I see improvement. He deserves more slack than he's getting.

You're kidding me right? The Clemson gameplan was ATROCIOUS. There was absolutely a prevent D against Wake. Did you watch either game? Riley Skinner may have an iconic wang, but he is not a good QB. And the defense not having a pass rush is somehow not the fault of the guy who was the defensive coordinator for a fucking decade? Really?

[MilitantEagle]

Davis is awesome! Bleep. Merrymen suck. Boop. Blorp.

You guys have tits for brains if you think Davis is/was going to be a great QB. But I love the qualifier, "he would have been great IF he had more time under Logan." So when he finishes his sucky career we'll never know what could have been under Logan. What a shame. But anyway, when did Logan become such a genius? There were numerous threads last year complaining about his play calling and telling him to stop drinking so much wine and to turn off the jazz music. Some of you have very short memories. BC had solid-to-great offensive performances against FSU and NCSU. The other games were pretty much mediocre or an outright mess. See: Kent St (mediocre), GT (mess), Clemson (mess), ND (mediocre at best), UNC (mess), Wake (disaster with Davis), Maryland (mediocre), VTx2 (mediocre and mess).

Back to the main point. Please read this next part slowly and carefully. Just because we recognize that Davis is the worst QB ever to play at BC does not make us merrymen. Secondly, just because we acknowledge that Jags missed out on ALL of his top QB targets and settled for guys that nobody wanted, it does not make us merrymen.

The world is not black and white. HJS, you should know this. You are a lawyer.

[EagleNYC]

Shorter HJS from this thread: I stopped watching BC Football last year when Crane got injured. I did not watch the ACC Championship Game or the Music City Bowl. I think Dominique Davis and Matt Ryan's first seasons as BC quarterbacks are comparable.

Even shorter HJS from this thread: I am a moron.

Ahhh yes... the patented EA Merryman Strawman argument. Good to have them back.
Selectively left out the defeat of Maryland with the ACCCG on the line. The Merrymen will never forgive or forget the ruining of our claim to fame... i.e. The Bowl Win Streak!!!! You want to blame DD for us losing to Vandy in Nashville? Fine. Let's selectively forget that Paul Anderson muffed a punt that went for a Vandy TD or that Herzlich roughed the passer to set up the game winning field goal. Why bother? Just so much more convenient to crucify a teenager who isn't here any longer. BTW... who should we blame for these two games that cost us a BCS bid???

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=273140120
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=243320103

I certainly would hope that BC fans would be as unforgiveable when dealing with veteran coaches as they are kids.

At the end of the day, I have no idea how good or bad DD would eventually have become at BC, but I think bringing him and Tuggle in showed that Jags and Logan didn't purposely submarine the school at the QB position as many fools in this thread have previously alleged. As for the academic things... whatever. It shows (a) BC's academic focus transcends all coaches and (b) that Spaz had the same academic eligibility issues that faces Jags after TOB left (i.e. when TOB left a ton of kids stopped going to class and Jags had to suffer the fallout).

Keep digging. I cited Vandy because it was a complete shit show- 15/36 for 190 yards (that's a whopping 5.3 yards per attempt) w/2 interceptions and 2 TDs. The long TD to Larmond provided over 1/4 of the passing and was actually a decent throw, so well done there. Everything else was a disaster. And that was just the most recent game in memory- the vaunted WF game was a series of fumbles punctuated by a single drive when his receivers wanted it so bad they refused to let ducks be intercepted. If you deny that, I don't know what to tell you. He had 2 fumbles returned for TDs. The MD game featured 2 first half TD and absolutely nothing else- the game was won with Flutie's fake FG pass to McMichael and sealed by a defensive TD.

Could DD be a serviceable QB after playing for 2 years in JUCO or at a 3rd tier WAC school- sure, why not. But he would never be acceptable at BC given how piss poor he had played when given the chance.

And one more thing- I VIVIDLY remember when Peterson went down and Ryan came in. Later on that game, he collected himself in the pocket, reared back, and delivered a TD pass to the middle of the endzone, hitting a WR in perfect stride, 40 yards downfield. I was very impressed because you could tell, just from that pass, that he had a big time arm and pocket presence. There was not a single play in Davis' 100 or so snaps that invoked anything resembling that reaction from me.

Do you also post as TampaDoubleEagle????
I think it hysterical that you say DD sucks because he only had an average of 5.3 yards per attempt when he went 15/36 for 190 yards against Vandy... in a bowl game... in Nashville. What the fuck would you think of a performance where (in a program-defining game) the RSF QB had an average of 3.9 yards per attempt in a 24/51 for 200 yards at home against a .500 team with a lame duck head coach????? Jesus... you guys make it way too easy.

You're really sticking with the comparison of Davis, who was the backup all year (albeit getting no snaps) in his 3rd start, with over a month as the #1, including all the bowl lead, with Ryan, who was making his first start on a week's notice? And you picked out one part of my long list of why he sucks- you didn't address the arm strength issue (as raised by many, many others), his proclivity for soul crushing fumbles, and his terrible accuracy. Too easy indeed. I admire your conviction though- is your next challenge a spirited defense of Ryan Ohlinger?