Moss

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Re: Moss

Postby EagleDave on Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:21 am

flyingelvii {l Wrote}:
EagleDave {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
cvilleagle {l Wrote}:Yeah, there must have been some sort of a blow-up, because this just doesn't make sense. The Pats need the weapons this year, because they're just going to have to outscore people sometimes. As a Bills fan, I can say that any team that we put up 30 on has some serious defensive deficiencies. (Although 7 of those were on special teams, still...)


The Pats D always gets much better as the year goes on, but yeah, this defense is young and stupid, though potentially dominant down the road. They need to score points.


The Pats defense is not going to get better this year. It's full of morons like Meriweather who are more concerned with SportsCenter than winning.

Trading Randy Moss for a mid round draft pick reeks of the "we're smarter than you!" arrogance that the Pats have been displaying the last 3 years. Same with the Richard Seymour deal. They won't keep either draft pick ultimately as they'll trade down, pick up some back up scrub, and they'll be out of the league in 4 years.

The continued downfall of the Patriots...gotta love it.

This is fucking retarded. They really sucked last year after losing Seymour. He would've made a HUUUUGGGEEE difference in the Ravens playoff game where the LB corps was exposed for the frauds that they are. Just an FYI, they did trade down from 7 to 10. Sadly, that picked only yielded the porous Jerod Mayo. His trades in the draft last year have only yielded a starting CB, the starting punter and placeholder, the team's leading receiver, and a promising MLB. What a piece of shit! He SUCKS!!!

They're getting younger all around. This year is more or less a transition year, especially with all of the injuries on the defensive side of the ball. And they'll still probably make the playoffs. Continued downfall indeed.


Right. Because Jerod Mayo has clearly matched and greatly exceeded that rookie season he had and not regressed right? Further, the Pats drafting has been average AT BEST in the past 5 years. Butler is useless, Brace is a bust, Chung is a special teams player, Wheatley is a bust, and Meriweather is highly overrated. That's 5 of their 7 1st/2nd round draft picks since 2007 (not including rookies, because it's too early to tell, though promising). The won't bother using the Raiders 1st round pick that everyone is so excited about because it doesn't give them "good value", so they'll package it with their own and trade down for 4 mid round picks, maybe 1 of which will work out.

They'll be lucky to make the playoffs this year and going forward.
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Re: Moss

Postby bignick33 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:33 am

EagleDave {l Wrote}:They'll be lucky to make the playoffs this year and going forward.


I'll bet you they make the playoffs this year.
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Re: Moss

Postby EagleDave on Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:39 am

bignick33 {l Wrote}:
EagleDave {l Wrote}:They'll be lucky to make the playoffs this year and going forward.


I'll bet you they make the playoffs this year.


If they do it'll be as #6. Pittsburgh, NYJ, Indy, Chargers/Chiefs, Ravens are all locks. After that is a shitastic collection of New England, Miami, Cincinnati, Houston, and Chiefs/Chargers for the last spot.

With games still to play against Miami, Jets, Ravens, Minnesota, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Indianapolis, San Diego and Green Bay? I bet they lose 6 of those and they need tie breakers to make the playoffs.
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Re: Moss

Postby cvilleagle on Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:41 am

What I don't get is if they're looking to trade for Vincent Jackson, why didn't they just offer Moss for Jackson straight up? You don't think SD would take that deal? VJack has to be better than a 3rd-round pick. The Vikings offered a 2nd and a 3rd for him and couldn't get him.
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Re: Moss

Postby EagleDave on Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:44 am

cvilleagle {l Wrote}:What I don't get is if they're looking to trade for Vincent Jackson, why didn't they just offer Moss for Jackson straight up? You don't think SD would take that deal? VJack has to be better than a 3rd-round pick. The Vikings offered a 2nd and a 3rd for him and couldn't get him.



Someone pointed this out to me...

If that Pats had simply held Moss until the end of the season and then let him walk, they would have gotten a compensatory 3rd round pick anyway.

So let's evaluate. Rather than keep the guy on board and let him play in a contract year where he'll be on his best behavior and play as hard as possible and you can get a 3rd round compensatory pick after the season, you trade him for nothing tangible that helps you now, and you get the same pick you'd have gotten anyway. All while waving the Spaz flag on the season.

Unbelievable stupidity.
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Re: Moss

Postby flyingelvii on Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:46 am

EagleDave {l Wrote}:
cvilleagle {l Wrote}:What I don't get is if they're looking to trade for Vincent Jackson, why didn't they just offer Moss for Jackson straight up? You don't think SD would take that deal? VJack has to be better than a 3rd-round pick. The Vikings offered a 2nd and a 3rd for him and couldn't get him.



Someone pointed this out to me...

If that Pats had simply held Moss until the end of the season and then let him walk, they would have gotten a compensatory 3rd round pick anyway.

So let's evaluate. Rather than keep the guy on board and let him play in a contract year where he'll be on his best behavior and play as hard as possible and you can get a 3rd round compensatory pick after the season, you trade him for nothing tangible that helps you now, and you get the same pick you'd have gotten anyway. All while waving the Spaz flag on the season.

Unbelievable stupidity.

10 year+ vets only get a 5th rounder as compensation. Swing and a miss again.
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Re: Moss

Postby flyingelvii on Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:55 am

EagleDave {l Wrote}:
flyingelvii {l Wrote}:
EagleDave {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
cvilleagle {l Wrote}:Yeah, there must have been some sort of a blow-up, because this just doesn't make sense. The Pats need the weapons this year, because they're just going to have to outscore people sometimes. As a Bills fan, I can say that any team that we put up 30 on has some serious defensive deficiencies. (Although 7 of those were on special teams, still...)


The Pats D always gets much better as the year goes on, but yeah, this defense is young and stupid, though potentially dominant down the road. They need to score points.


The Pats defense is not going to get better this year. It's full of morons like Meriweather who are more concerned with SportsCenter than winning.

Trading Randy Moss for a mid round draft pick reeks of the "we're smarter than you!" arrogance that the Pats have been displaying the last 3 years. Same with the Richard Seymour deal. They won't keep either draft pick ultimately as they'll trade down, pick up some back up scrub, and they'll be out of the league in 4 years.

The continued downfall of the Patriots...gotta love it.

This is fucking retarded. They really sucked last year after losing Seymour. He would've made a HUUUUGGGEEE difference in the Ravens playoff game where the LB corps was exposed for the frauds that they are. Just an FYI, they did trade down from 7 to 10. Sadly, that picked only yielded the porous Jerod Mayo. His trades in the draft last year have only yielded a starting CB, the starting punter and placeholder, the team's leading receiver, and a promising MLB. What a piece of shit! He SUCKS!!!

They're getting younger all around. This year is more or less a transition year, especially with all of the injuries on the defensive side of the ball. And they'll still probably make the playoffs. Continued downfall indeed.


Right. Because Jerod Mayo has clearly matched and greatly exceeded that rookie season he had and not regressed right? Further, the Pats drafting has been average AT BEST in the past 5 years. Butler is useless, Brace is a bust, Chung is a special teams player, Wheatley is a bust, and Meriweather is highly overrated. That's 5 of their 7 1st/2nd round draft picks since 2007 (not including rookies, because it's too early to tell, though promising). The won't bother using the Raiders 1st round pick that everyone is so excited about because it doesn't give them "good value", so they'll package it with their own and trade down for 4 mid round picks, maybe 1 of which will work out.

They'll be lucky to make the playoffs this year and going forward.

-Mayo is having a superb year after having a down year last year in which he never seemingly recovered from the injury in week one (ankle sprain maybe?)
-McCourtey is the team's starting CB and Belichick LOVES him
-Chung has been all over the place the past few weeks and plays his ass off on ST
-Brace and Butler are in their second years. Butler has seemingly regressed, Brace looks like a situational DE
-It's difficult to know what to make of Merriweather. Decent last year (overrated, yes) and weird year this year

Going one round further:
-Vollmer (conveniently left out?) is the LT of the future
-Tate is a beast on ST and will get a chance to show himself out wide now

And again, you base your conclusion off of pretty much nothing. Their draft from last year is looking superb, with about 4-5 guys that are already making significant contributions. That is an absurd rate for an NFL draft. There were some down years but even the best drafting teams (Colts, Steelers, etc.) have similar ones.

They're a 3-1 team tied for the division lead with a solid offense and a young, unproven defense that has a lot of raw talent. It will be interesting to see what happens without Moss garnering any attention but I can't imagine they'll fall from where they are down to Cleveland Browns territory. You sound like an idiot saying that this is a sign of the continual downfall when, generally, they've relatively easily made the playoffs in every year but two in the last decade.
Last edited by flyingelvii on Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moss

Postby bignick33 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:57 am

EagleDave {l Wrote}:
cvilleagle {l Wrote}:What I don't get is if they're looking to trade for Vincent Jackson, why didn't they just offer Moss for Jackson straight up? You don't think SD would take that deal? VJack has to be better than a 3rd-round pick. The Vikings offered a 2nd and a 3rd for him and couldn't get him.



Someone pointed this out to me...

If that Pats had simply held Moss until the end of the season and then let him walk, they would have gotten a compensatory 3rd round pick anyway.

So let's evaluate. Rather than keep the guy on board and let him play in a contract year where he'll be on his best behavior and play as hard as possible and you can get a 3rd round compensatory pick after the season, you trade him for nothing tangible that helps you now, and you get the same pick you'd have gotten anyway. All while waving the Spaz flag on the season.

Unbelievable stupidity.


I doubt he's been on his behavior. After all, isn't that one of the primary reasons for the trade in the first place? My guess is that it's been the opposite; he's acting out in order to force the Pats' hand.

This team has massaged his ego for four year, and they've done a tremendous job at it. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Moss

Postby bignick33 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:58 am

As far as "continued downfall," I contend that they're better this year than last even without Moss, and I don't even think it's close.
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Re: Moss

Postby cvilleagle on Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:00 am

Hell, I don't like the Pats' D, but they could easily win this division.

The Bills and Dolphins both suck, and the Jets are way overhyped. I like how the national media is crowing about how "LT is back" because he had a 100-yard game against a terrible team.
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Re: Moss

Postby EagleDave on Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:03 am

flyingelvii {l Wrote}:
EagleDave {l Wrote}:
flyingelvii {l Wrote}:
EagleDave {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
cvilleagle {l Wrote}:Yeah, there must have been some sort of a blow-up, because this just doesn't make sense. The Pats need the weapons this year, because they're just going to have to outscore people sometimes. As a Bills fan, I can say that any team that we put up 30 on has some serious defensive deficiencies. (Although 7 of those were on special teams, still...)


The Pats D always gets much better as the year goes on, but yeah, this defense is young and stupid, though potentially dominant down the road. They need to score points.


The Pats defense is not going to get better this year. It's full of morons like Meriweather who are more concerned with SportsCenter than winning.

Trading Randy Moss for a mid round draft pick reeks of the "we're smarter than you!" arrogance that the Pats have been displaying the last 3 years. Same with the Richard Seymour deal. They won't keep either draft pick ultimately as they'll trade down, pick up some back up scrub, and they'll be out of the league in 4 years.

The continued downfall of the Patriots...gotta love it.

This is fucking retarded. They really sucked last year after losing Seymour. He would've made a HUUUUGGGEEE difference in the Ravens playoff game where the LB corps was exposed for the frauds that they are. Just an FYI, they did trade down from 7 to 10. Sadly, that picked only yielded the porous Jerod Mayo. His trades in the draft last year have only yielded a starting CB, the starting punter and placeholder, the team's leading receiver, and a promising MLB. What a piece of shit! He SUCKS!!!

They're getting younger all around. This year is more or less a transition year, especially with all of the injuries on the defensive side of the ball. And they'll still probably make the playoffs. Continued downfall indeed.


Right. Because Jerod Mayo has clearly matched and greatly exceeded that rookie season he had and not regressed right? Further, the Pats drafting has been average AT BEST in the past 5 years. Butler is useless, Brace is a bust, Chung is a special teams player, Wheatley is a bust, and Meriweather is highly overrated. That's 5 of their 7 1st/2nd round draft picks since 2007 (not including rookies, because it's too early to tell, though promising). The won't bother using the Raiders 1st round pick that everyone is so excited about because it doesn't give them "good value", so they'll package it with their own and trade down for 4 mid round picks, maybe 1 of which will work out.

They'll be lucky to make the playoffs this year and going forward.

-Mayo is having a superb year
-McCourtey is the team's starting CB and Belichick LOVES him
-Chung has been all over the place the past few weeks and plays his ass off on ST
-Brace and Butler are in their second years. Butler has seemingly regressed, Brace looks like a situational DE
-It's difficult to know what to make of Merriweather. Decent last year (overrated, yes) and weird year this year

Going one round further:
-Vollmer (conveniently left out?) is the LT of the future
-Tate is a beast on ST and will get a chance to show himself out wide now

And again, you base your conclusion off of pretty much nothing. Their draft from last year is looking superb, with about 4-5 guys that are already making significant contributions. That is an absurd rate for an NFL draft. There were some down years but even the best drafting teams (Colts, Steelers, etc.) have similar ones.

They're a 3-1 team tied for the division lead with a solid offense and a young, unproven defense that has a lot of raw talent. It will be interesting to see what happens without Moss garnering any attention but I can't imagine they'll fall from where they are down to Cleveland Browns territory. You sound like an idiot saying that this is a sign of the continual downfall when, generally, they've relatively easily made the playoffs in every year but two in the last decade.


They'll never be the Cleveland Browns, but they'll be between 7-9 and 10-6 for the conceivable future until they stop doing stuff like this. And making the playoffs easily every year in their case was a matter of 2 things:

1) They had teams that are light years better than this team (every team they've had from 2001-2007 would smoke this team by 4 TD's).
2) The division was HORRID for the entire decade. (this years team would have made it easily every year as well, it was that bad).

It's just isn't as simple for the Pats as rolling out 22 guys and making the playoffs every year anymore. There's too much talent in the division now for them to just keep trading top guys and praying for the draft to work out while not spending in FA. They managed finances, got lucky with some scrap heap free agents, got lucky with mid-low round draft picks, and pounced on a couple of teams looking to unload moody players for low compensation. And they could do that and get away with it because they didn't have to compete with anyone in the division. Life has changed, and so must they...but they're not interested in doing that right now. Thus, they'll struggle in the immediate future.
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Re: Moss

Postby claver2010 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:30 am

cvilleagle {l Wrote}:Hell, I don't like the Pats' D, but they could easily win this division.

The Bills and Dolphins both suck, and the Jets are way overhyped. I like how the national media is crowing about how "LT is back" because he had a 100-yard game against a terrible team.


The Jets just swept the division with 2 on the road. Their only loss was by 1 point to a team that is a Super Bowl contender (and the only reason it was by 1 point was because of a bs roughing the kicker call where the K didn't have enough room for his foot to land).

All of this with their 3 best players on D out (2 of which coming are coming back) and probably their best offensive player coming back this week.
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Re: Moss

Postby Endless Mike on Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:34 am

EagleDave {l Wrote}:Life has changed, and so must they...but they're not interested in doing that right now. Thus, they'll struggle in the immediate future.


Their defensive struggles this year are mainly because of Belichick's choice to make changes. Since they blew that lead to the Colts in the AFCCG, the defense has been getting younger every year. Bill used to rely on veteran free agents to anchor the D but decided to rebuild it from the ground up after seeing Bruschi and Vrabel spending the late minutes of big games with their hands on their hips, winded.

This is a talented D that is frustrating at times because the young guys make stupid young guy mistakes, and they don't have a Rodney Harrison or Tedy Bruschi type veteran. In a few years this will be a dominant defense. The problem is that by that time, Brady will be a couple years older and probably thinking of retiring.

Calling BIG RON BRACE a bust is obzerd. He's been filling in nicely on the end and at nose tackle. I imagine Bill has been very pleased with his contributions. This current crop of rookies has been exceptional so far.

I don't like this Moss trade. I presume Brandon Tate will be the deep back now, and he's not going to draw double coverage like Moss did, so the other receivers won't be wide open. This makes their lack of depth at RB even more glaring, because teams don't care if they run it. Morris is still banged up and has had a limited role. Taylor has a toe injury and was never going to last a full season anyway. Faulk is done for the year. Woodhead of course is getting all the love from the media for being a small white guy, but he's only gong to help as a third down back. That just leaves Green-Ellis.

I don't see them trading for Vincent Jackson. Isn't he still in some trouble with the league? They have a lot of picks to deal and they still have Mankins too. The Bills just traded Marshawn Lynch. I wonder if there are any other RBs being shopped around. Looks like they were right about Maroney.
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Re: Moss

Postby flyingelvii on Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:07 pm

EagleDave {l Wrote}:
flyingelvii {l Wrote}:
EagleDave {l Wrote}:
flyingelvii {l Wrote}:
EagleDave {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
cvilleagle {l Wrote}:Yeah, there must have been some sort of a blow-up, because this just doesn't make sense. The Pats need the weapons this year, because they're just going to have to outscore people sometimes. As a Bills fan, I can say that any team that we put up 30 on has some serious defensive deficiencies. (Although 7 of those were on special teams, still...)


The Pats D always gets much better as the year goes on, but yeah, this defense is young and stupid, though potentially dominant down the road. They need to score points.


The Pats defense is not going to get better this year. It's full of morons like Meriweather who are more concerned with SportsCenter than winning.

Trading Randy Moss for a mid round draft pick reeks of the "we're smarter than you!" arrogance that the Pats have been displaying the last 3 years. Same with the Richard Seymour deal. They won't keep either draft pick ultimately as they'll trade down, pick up some back up scrub, and they'll be out of the league in 4 years.

The continued downfall of the Patriots...gotta love it.

This is fucking retarded. They really sucked last year after losing Seymour. He would've made a HUUUUGGGEEE difference in the Ravens playoff game where the LB corps was exposed for the frauds that they are. Just an FYI, they did trade down from 7 to 10. Sadly, that picked only yielded the porous Jerod Mayo. His trades in the draft last year have only yielded a starting CB, the starting punter and placeholder, the team's leading receiver, and a promising MLB. What a piece of shit! He SUCKS!!!

They're getting younger all around. This year is more or less a transition year, especially with all of the injuries on the defensive side of the ball. And they'll still probably make the playoffs. Continued downfall indeed.


Right. Because Jerod Mayo has clearly matched and greatly exceeded that rookie season he had and not regressed right? Further, the Pats drafting has been average AT BEST in the past 5 years. Butler is useless, Brace is a bust, Chung is a special teams player, Wheatley is a bust, and Meriweather is highly overrated. That's 5 of their 7 1st/2nd round draft picks since 2007 (not including rookies, because it's too early to tell, though promising). The won't bother using the Raiders 1st round pick that everyone is so excited about because it doesn't give them "good value", so they'll package it with their own and trade down for 4 mid round picks, maybe 1 of which will work out.

They'll be lucky to make the playoffs this year and going forward.

-Mayo is having a superb year
-McCourtey is the team's starting CB and Belichick LOVES him
-Chung has been all over the place the past few weeks and plays his ass off on ST
-Brace and Butler are in their second years. Butler has seemingly regressed, Brace looks like a situational DE
-It's difficult to know what to make of Merriweather. Decent last year (overrated, yes) and weird year this year

Going one round further:
-Vollmer (conveniently left out?) is the LT of the future
-Tate is a beast on ST and will get a chance to show himself out wide now

And again, you base your conclusion off of pretty much nothing. Their draft from last year is looking superb, with about 4-5 guys that are already making significant contributions. That is an absurd rate for an NFL draft. There were some down years but even the best drafting teams (Colts, Steelers, etc.) have similar ones.

They're a 3-1 team tied for the division lead with a solid offense and a young, unproven defense that has a lot of raw talent. It will be interesting to see what happens without Moss garnering any attention but I can't imagine they'll fall from where they are down to Cleveland Browns territory. You sound like an idiot saying that this is a sign of the continual downfall when, generally, they've relatively easily made the playoffs in every year but two in the last decade.


They'll never be the Cleveland Browns, but they'll be between 7-9 and 10-6 for the conceivable future until they stop doing stuff like this. And making the playoffs easily every year in their case was a matter of 2 things:

1) They had teams that are light years better than this team (every team they've had from 2001-2007 would smoke this team by 4 TD's).
2) The division was HORRID for the entire decade. (this years team would have made it easily every year as well, it was that bad).

It's just isn't as simple for the Pats as rolling out 22 guys and making the playoffs every year anymore. There's too much talent in the division now for them to just keep trading top guys and praying for the draft to work out while not spending in FA. They managed finances, got lucky with some scrap heap free agents, got lucky with mid-low round draft picks, and pounced on a couple of teams looking to unload moody players for low compensation. And they could do that and get away with it because they didn't have to compete with anyone in the division. Life has changed, and so must they...but they're not interested in doing that right now. Thus, they'll struggle in the immediate future.

They have spent in FA in recent years (assuming 2007 is a recent year). Off the top of my head, Fred Taylor, Randy Moss (was a FA after '07), Wes Welker (RFA acquired via trade, basically a FA), and Leigh Bodden (x2) all come to mind.

They have also not had to make as many splashes in the FA market because of the guys they have internally developed such as Brady, Wilfork, Warren, Neal, Light, and Koppen. The Jets have largely sucked at drafting and they have had frequent coaching turnover. Certain players don't fit certain systems so they leave or are traded (Vilma comes to mind) and are largely replaced with higher profile moves.
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Re: Moss

Postby claver2010 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:17 pm

flyingelvii {l Wrote}:The Jets have largely sucked at drafting and they have had frequent coaching turnover. Certain players don't fit certain systems so they leave or are traded (Vilma comes to mind) and are largely replaced with higher profile moves.


Not really, since Tannenbaum came on in '06 they have drafted:

06: D'Brickashaw (first a bust, now pretty good LT), Mangold (best C in football), Leon Washington (excellent return man, 3rd down back).
07: Revis, David Harris
08: Gholston (bust so far), Dustin Keller (looks like a pretty damn good TE)
09: Sanchez (looks like a pretty good QB), Shonn Greene
10: Wilson (has gotten lit up like most rookie CBs)

Look at the Pats since '06 really hasn't been close.
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Re: Moss

Postby commavegarage on Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:35 pm

flyingelvii {l Wrote}: The Jets have largely sucked at drafting.


Assuming you mean recently as you allude to, this quote shows you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Anyway, here's something that probably put some gas on the fire: http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nfl/ne ... pn_5655198

I don't get trading him. I understand what Brady was able to accomplish w/o any significant WR's before and it makes his success even more remarkable, but I think they are putting a TON of faith in players who have proved pretty much nothing (Tate, Hernandez). Yes, Hernandez looks fantastic, but it's only been 4 games.
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Re: Moss

Postby branchinator on Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:35 pm

claver2010 {l Wrote}:
flyingelvii {l Wrote}:The Jets have largely sucked at drafting and they have had frequent coaching turnover. Certain players don't fit certain systems so they leave or are traded (Vilma comes to mind) and are largely replaced with higher profile moves.


Not really, since Tannenbaum came on in '06 they have drafted:

06: D'Brickashaw (first a bust, now pretty good LT), Mangold (best C in football), Leon Washington (excellent return man, 3rd down back).
07: Revis, David Harris
08: Gholston (bust so far), Dustin Keller (looks like a pretty damn good TE)
09: Sanchez (looks like a pretty good QB), Shonn Greene
10: Wilson (has gotten lit up like most rookie CBs)

Look at the Pats since '06 really hasn't been close.


2006 to 2008 was a bad draft period for the Pats. Of course, in 2007 they essentially "drafted" Randy Moss and Wes Welker for a 2nd/4th round pick. The Patriots' last 2 drafts have been pretty solid. Chung is a starting-calibre safety. Vollmer is starter at RT. Tate is a starter at WR and a great KR. Butler and Brace are still TBD but have contributed a little bit. This year, McCourty is already a starting calibre CB, Gronkowski and Hernandez have been good, Spikes is starting at MLB, and I guess we'll see what Taylor Price has.

Most of the players you list above were higher picks than the Patriots have gotten (although some of this is because we're always trading down). However, the Jets have obviously done well. Gholston is really the only terrible bust whereas the Pats had Maroney/Jackson in one draft.
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Re: Moss

Postby flyingelvii on Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:39 pm

claver2010 {l Wrote}:
flyingelvii {l Wrote}:The Jets have largely sucked at drafting and they have had frequent coaching turnover. Certain players don't fit certain systems so they leave or are traded (Vilma comes to mind) and are largely replaced with higher profile moves.


Not really, since Tannenbaum came on in '06 they have drafted:

06: D'Brickashaw (first a bust, now pretty good LT), Mangold (best C in football), Leon Washington (excellent return man, 3rd down back).
07: Revis, David Harris
08: Gholston (bust so far), Dustin Keller (looks like a pretty damn good TE)
09: Sanchez (looks like a pretty good QB), Shonn Greene
10: Wilson (has gotten lit up like most rookie CBs)

Look at the Pats since '06 really hasn't been close.

That's great except most of those guys are still on their rookie contracts whereas I was making a point about how the Pats' splashes have come on guys coming off rookie contracts, which pretty much means guys drafted pre-2007. The Pats have a good record and thus are somehow burned by some for re-signing their internally developed guys instead of going after externally developed guys.
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Re: Moss

Postby cvilleagle on Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:40 pm

claver2010 {l Wrote}:
cvilleagle {l Wrote}:Hell, I don't like the Pats' D, but they could easily win this division.

The Bills and Dolphins both suck, and the Jets are way overhyped. I like how the national media is crowing about how "LT is back" because he had a 100-yard game against a terrible team.


The Jets just swept the division with 2 on the road. Their only loss was by 1 point to a team that is a Super Bowl contender (and the only reason it was by 1 point was because of a bs roughing the kicker call where the K didn't have enough room for his foot to land).

All of this with their 3 best players on D out (2 of which coming are coming back) and probably their best offensive player coming back this week.


Yes, but...

They're still super-sketchy at the QB position, the most important position in the game. They are 3-1, but let's break that down for a second.

Buffalo sucks. Probably the worst team in the league.
Miami sucks almost as much. They almost lost to Buffalo in Week 1.
New England will sweep both of those teams as well, and I would expect the Pats to beat the Jets in New England so you're looking at identical division records.

The Jets may have only lost to the Ravens by one, but they looked terrible doing it. This team has, and will continue to have, trouble scoring on good defenses.

They're certainly a good team, but they're not running away with this division, either. Both teams have about the same amount of difficulty left in their schedules, as well.
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Re: Moss

Postby branchinator on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:04 pm

Cville, what offense DOESN'T have trouble scoring on good defenses? The 2010 Jets team reminds me of a more talented version of the 2001 Pats, which obviously sickens me.
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Re: Moss

Postby claver2010 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:21 pm

cvilleagle {l Wrote}:Yes, but...

They're still super-sketchy at the QB position, the most important position in the game. They are 3-1, but let's break that down for a second.

Buffalo sucks. Probably the worst team in the league.
Miami sucks almost as much. They almost lost to Buffalo in Week 1.
New England will sweep both of those teams as well, and I would expect the Pats to beat the Jets in New England so you're looking at identical division records.

The Jets may have only lost to the Ravens by one, but they looked terrible doing it. This team has, and will continue to have, trouble scoring on good defenses.

They're certainly a good team, but they're not running away with this division, either. Both teams have about the same amount of difficulty left in their schedules, as well.


That "super-sketchy" QB has played pretty well so far this year. We all made it to the AFC CG with him playing like a rookie QB.

Buffalo sucks, agreed
Don't think Miami sucks. NE's vaunted offense scored 6 points off of them. We'll see though.

Don't think they are going to run away with it but it is safe to say they are the best team in the division.
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Re: Moss

Postby bignick33 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:22 pm

claver2010 {l Wrote}:Don't think Miami sucks. NE's vaunted offense scored 6 points off of them.


That's false.
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Re: Moss

Postby ryfarls on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:23 pm

branchinator {l Wrote}:Cville, what offense DOESN'T have trouble scoring on good defenses? The 2010 Jets team reminds me of a more talented version of the 2001 Pats, which obviously sickens me.


except for the fact that the Pats in 2001 weren't expected to be anywhere close to a playoff team, especially after bledsoe got injured, while this years jets team got handed the preseason super bowl trophy while getting jerked off by everyone in the media. Can't have much of an underdog mentality like the pats had that year when everyones telling you how great you are and your coach is also telling the media how good you are. not really much of a comparison.
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Re: Moss

Postby claver2010 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:25 pm

bignick33 {l Wrote}:
claver2010 {l Wrote}:Don't think Miami sucks. NE's vaunted offense scored 6 points off of them.


That's false.


You want to say 13 cause they were able to score a TD when they got hte ball at the 12? Sure, splitting hairs.

Edit: You're right they scored 13 whoop de doo! Forgot about Woodhead's TD.
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Re: Moss

Postby bignick33 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:32 pm

claver2010 {l Wrote}:
bignick33 {l Wrote}:
claver2010 {l Wrote}:Don't think Miami sucks. NE's vaunted offense scored 6 points off of them.


That's false.


You want to say 13 cause they were able to score a TD when they got hte ball at the 12? Sure, splitting hairs.

Edit: You're right they scored 13 whoop de doo!


Plus...three opportunities for drives were ended before they started (as a result of the three non-offensive TDs). That's why the Dolphins led in Time of Possession...very misleading. Let's look at it another way: After the first two punts, the Pats' offense scored on every possession until the game was no longer in doubt in the fourth quarter. I don't think there's much to criticize in their offensive performance in that game, and I think that Miami is at best an 8-8 team.
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Re: Moss

Postby claver2010 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:35 pm

Agreed, probably an 8-8 team which somehow equates to "Sucks, almost as much as Buffalo" :roll:
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Re: Moss

Postby EagleDave on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:38 pm

bignick33 {l Wrote}:
claver2010 {l Wrote}:
bignick33 {l Wrote}:
claver2010 {l Wrote}:Don't think Miami sucks. NE's vaunted offense scored 6 points off of them.


That's false.


You want to say 13 cause they were able to score a TD when they got hte ball at the 12? Sure, splitting hairs.

Edit: You're right they scored 13 whoop de doo!


Plus...three opportunities for drives were ended before they started (as a result of the three non-offensive TDs). That's why the Dolphins led in Time of Possession...very misleading. Let's look at it another way: After the first two punts, the Pats' offense scored on every possession until the game was no longer in doubt in the fourth quarter. I don't think there's much to criticize in their offensive performance in that game, and I think that Miami is at best an 8-8 team.


Pats are in the same boat. Their ceiling is 10-6 but more likely 9-7. There's not much separation between them. Scoring 30 points or whatever that are directly related to special teams covers a lot of problems, but they won't get that kind of production again. EVER. And without Moss stretching the field (nobody cares about Tate unless the other team just scored and he's standing in the end zone awaiting the kickoff) Welker and the running game won't be nearly as strong.

EDIT- keep blasting the Bills all you want, they're awful, but THE Ryan Fitzpatrick threw for a billion yards and hung 30 on this supposedly talented Pats D. The Pats are closer to the Bills than they are the Jets.
Last edited by EagleDave on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Moss

Postby bignick33 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:38 pm

claver2010 {l Wrote}:Agreed, probably an 8-8 team which somehow equates to "Sucks, almost as much as Buffalo" :roll:


Fair enough. But beating them, even on the road, doesn't prove much by the Pats or the Jets.
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Re: Moss

Postby RegalBCeagle on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:47 pm

EagleDave {l Wrote}:
bignick33 {l Wrote}:
EagleDave {l Wrote}:They'll be lucky to make the playoffs this year and going forward.


I'll bet you they make the playoffs this year.


If they do it'll be as #6. Pittsburgh, NYJ, Indy, Chargers/Chiefs, Ravens are all locks. After that is a shitastic collection of New England, Miami, Cincinnati, Houston, and Chiefs/Chargers for the last spot.

With games still to play against Miami, Jets, Ravens, Minnesota, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Indianapolis, San Diego and Green Bay? I bet they lose 6 of those and they need tie breakers to make the playoffs.


Pittsburgh - solid team with Rapelisberger coming back.
NYJ - overrated but very good D and OK offense. I think Pats are their equal with very good O and OK D.
Indy - D sucks but O will win games. I think the Pats are a more complete team.
Chargers - as always, way freakin' overrated. They only make it because they're in the West. They are merely OK.
Chiefs - suck, and I expect them to pull a 2009 Denver and miss the playoffs.
Ravens - probably best team in AFC.

Tough to say where this Pats team is with a developing D (with Brace filling in nicely the last few weeks) and now deficient a deep threat that I believe forced the team to gameplan around him instead of gameplanning for the entire team. I don't like losing Moss mid-season with no realistic solid WR replacement ready, but I don't mind Moss leaving from a long-term perspective. The Pats could conceivably be the 3rd best team in the AFC or the 6th. To lump them in with Cinci, Miami, Chiefs, and Chargers is stupid. The one thing that hurts the Pats in comparison to these teams is possibly the toughest schedule in the NFL.
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Re: Moss

Postby eagle9903 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:48 pm

At least Belichick actually used to be as smart as he thinks he is.
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