Official Gameday Thread - BC vs. Duke - 10/3/2015

[dtwalrus]

Seriously, look at the QB recruiting in recent years:

QB Recruits:
2009: Mike Marscovetra and Dave Shinski
2010: Chase Rettig and Josh Bordner
2011: Christian Suntrup
2012: NONE
2013: Mackie Lowry and James Walsh -- both pro style, both transfered. (Daz took over in December. 2 months of recruiting a QB to a 2-win team with lots of question marks, came up dry. Surprise surprise)
2014: Darius Wade and Troy Flutie
2015: Elijah Robinson and Jeff Smith.

Right now our QB should be coming from the 2011, 2012 or 2013 classes. Look at those classes and tell me what Daz is supposed to do about that.

find 5th years or jucos

And he did that last year and it worked well. But if you do that every year you don't develop the talent you have. Maybe it's the wrong decision, but this year always felt like the buildup to 2016. I actually loved the idea of Wade playing all this year even if there was a better transfer on the table, because I was really excited about 2016 with Wade having a full year experience as a starter. I think Daz was thinking the same thing.

In retrospect, looking back now knowing that Wade was going to get injured, obviously we bring in a 5th year. But it's hard to bring in a good 5th year if you tell them that there most likely going to be the backup. That's really fucking hard to do. Tyler Murphy was basically guaranteed the starting job. That's how you get that done. Not "hey, come transfer here. you'll probably spend all year as the backup but on the off chance our starter (who we like better than you) gets injured, we'd really love to have you."

[twballgame9]

Seriously, look at the QB recruiting in recent years:

QB Recruits:
2009: Mike Marscovetra and Dave Shinski
2010: Chase Rettig and Josh Bordner
2011: Christian Suntrup
2012: NONE
2013: Mackie Lowry and James Walsh -- both pro style, both transfered. (Daz took over in December. 2 months of recruiting a QB to a 2-win team with lots of question marks, came up dry. Surprise surprise)
2014: Darius Wade and Troy Flutie
2015: Elijah Robinson and Jeff Smith.

Right now our QB should be coming from the 2011, 2012 or 2013 classes. Look at those classes and tell me what Daz is supposed to do about that.

find 5th years or jucos

The line situation was just as bad. Two positions that take the most development, which is why they weren't fixed as fast as the defense and RBs. Regardless, he did what you said at those two positions for 2 seasons with Patchan, Silberman and Murphy. Only so many of those guys to go around, and sooner or later you had to start Wade. If Wade were healthy, this team is 4-1 and doing better than I expected.

[dtwalrus]

Seriously, look at the QB recruiting in recent years:

QB Recruits:
2009: Mike Marscovetra and Dave Shinski
2010: Chase Rettig and Josh Bordner
2011: Christian Suntrup
2012: NONE
2013: Mackie Lowry and James Walsh -- both pro style, both transfered. (Daz took over in December. 2 months of recruiting a QB to a 2-win team with lots of question marks, came up dry. Surprise surprise)
2014: Darius Wade and Troy Flutie
2015: Elijah Robinson and Jeff Smith.

Right now our QB should be coming from the 2011, 2012 or 2013 classes. Look at those classes and tell me what Daz is supposed to do about that.

find 5th years or jucos.

pick one of the two starting quarterbacks that you have and develop an offense that will work for them and not a bi-polar approach of throwing two different non-working solutions at the same problem.

new question - how long does it take to develop an o-line at a school like bc. (caveat - does that time grow shorter if you are allegedly a "oline and running backs expert")?

1) Pick a starter: Daz has said he thinks that would hurt their development. Sounded like he was talking about Smith going out and getting intercepted 2 or 3 times a game killing his confidence. You can disagree, but he's worried about Smith's career potential at BC. Also, picking the wrong starter may lead to more losses. This idea that one QB = more wins is based on no facts whatsever when all of your QB options are problematic and neither of them look like a capable starter.

2) The OLine is disappointing. No excuses there. I don't think Daz is making any excuses about that either. He's clearly disappointed. I trust he'll continue to work on it and at the very least I think the OLine has a bright future in the years ahead.

[TobaccoRoadEagle]

after reading walrus's multiple "trust the staff" comments i am now worried that wade is being built into a football-clifford and we will all hope and pray that some day he reaches 100%

i hope this feeling is wrong, but this is the feeling that i have.

[twballgame9]

I backed you walrus on the recruiting aspect, but the starter aspect is stupid. They run better when Smith is in, much better. Enough that he won't have to throw much until he is comfortable. Can't throw picks if you don't need to throw.

Also, I'd note that the three or four closest things to picks since Wade's injury have all come off of Flutie's arm.

[TobaccoRoadEagle]

1) Pick a starter: Daz has said he thinks that would hurt their development...

well that sounds hard. maybe we should just not start a quarterback so no one has to have their feewings hurt.

this is fucking football. pick a guy, put the rock in his hands, play the fucking game.

ps - if he's so worried about people getting their feewings hurt, why does he keep breaking our kickers as quickly as he can? seems somewhat hypocritical to me. but, what do i know, i don't even like sports

[twballgame9]

after reading walrus's multiple "trust the staff" comments i am now worried that wade is being built into a football-clifford and we will all hope and pray that some day he reaches 100%

i hope this feeling is wrong, but this is the feeling that i have.

Big difference between a talented football player with a one time injury and a marginal 7 footer with non existent knees.

[dtwalrus]

Can I just say that I think it is a testament to how good of a coaching job Daz has done that we, as a fan bases, are even disappointed about only being 3-2 right now and maybe only winning 5-7 games. The fact that our expectations are back to competing for the Atlantic is only because of the fact that Daz has brought in better talent, gotten the most out of the talent that he has, and crafted a game plan that has made us competitive in almost every single game since he's arrived. How quickly we forget the apathy and resignation of 2012.

[TobaccoRoadEagle]

our offense is spazlovian. if we didn't have one of, if not the best defense in the country, we'd be dead.

i think it's time to put the "daz is great, period." comments to rest for a little while

[twballgame9]

Can I just say that I think it is a testament to how good of a coaching job Daz has done that we, as a fan bases, are even disappointed about only being 3-2 right now and maybe only winning 5-7 games. The fact that our expectations are back to competing for the Atlantic is only because of the fact that Daz has brought in better talent, gotten the most out of the talent that he has, and crafted a game plan that has made us competitive in almost every single game since he's arrived. How quickly we forget the apathy and resignation of 2012.

Calling bullshit on this one. Good, aggressive coaching might have won 10 games and the Atlantic last season.

[claver2010]

i am actually surprised he didn't bring in another OL. maybe he had more confidence in the ol, as he's in denial about their play this season

no clue about who was out there but daz could've easily sold: come here for your 5th year and make the NFL

[dtwalrus]

after reading walrus's multiple "trust the staff" comments i am now worried that wade is being built into a football-clifford and we will all hope and pray that some day he reaches 100%

i hope this feeling is wrong, but this is the feeling that i have.

QB Recruits:
2009: Mike Marscovetra and Dave Shinski
2010: Chase Rettig and Josh Bordner
2011: Christian Suntrup
2012: NONE
2013: Mackie Lowry and James Walsh -- both pro style, both transfered. (Daz took over in December. 2 months of recruiting a QB to a 2-win team with lots of question marks, came up dry. Surprise surprise)
2014: Darius Wade and Troy Flutie
2015: Jeff Smith (deleted Robinson due to position switch)
2016: Anthony Brown (hopefully)
2017: (likely another very capable recruit)

Wade is not the be-all-end-all. Daz has improved the QB recruiting in general. If you were to just look at the QB recruiting timeline alone -- regardless of injuries or on field performance -- I think any rational person would say that BC should be in much better shape at QB by 2016 and 2017 than they are now. Whether it's Wade, or Smith, or Flutie, or by 2017 maybe Brown.

And yes, besides clock management and the two minute drill, I am still guilty of trust-the-staff'ism. And I'm not ashamed of that. History may prove me wrong, but for now I like this staff and I like the big picture plan they have in place.

[TobaccoRoadEagle]

thanks, nospace. i now understand that one more year of being A MAN will help flutie, et al become better quarterbacks.

i'm sorry it took me so long to understand your argument. now that i know it is the wikipedia defense of manhood i will stay out of this discussion

[eagle9903]

so if wade gets hurt again next year does that mean we'll still suck because we'll still be stuck with the same qbs that can't seem to do anything and a true freshman that should be expected to suck because he hasn't been in school for three years?

and if, because of that reason, we still suck - can we still trust the staff or are we finally allowed to suggest that maybe the staff has some deficiencies that could/should be improved upon?

Follow up question - is it an excuse that Wade is inexperienced as a starter next year, notwithstanding having experienced QBs backing him up?

It's not an excuse at all next year.

[b0mberMan]

thanks, nospace. i now understand that one more year of being A MAN will help flutie, et al become better quarterbacks.

To be fair, it's entirely possible that Flutie will get better after he hits puberty

[hansen]

Bitching about the loss of Hilliman is considering our depth and talent at RB.
Bithcing about the loss of your starting QB when you have no backups because of Suntrup's inability to continue playing football and Spaziani creating a dumpster fire at the position is somewhat acceptable. I say somewhat only because you had all of last year to get Flutie to be serviceable at the position or find someone else who was. He had one year to develop a contingency plan in the case Wade went down and a good coach would have prepared accordingly. If he continues the bitching after Clemson, then it becomes in my opinion because by this point if he had chosen a starter, then the guy would have had 4 starts under his belt already.

[eagle9903]

i am actually surprised he didn't bring in another OL. maybe he had more confidence in the ol, as he's in denial about their play this season

no clue about who was out there but daz could've easily sold: come here for your 5th year and make the NFL

The lack of potential candidates is a pretty big problem if applicable. People mentioned Trip Thurman from Florida, but he is their starting LG so I can see why he maybe didn't want to transfer.

[dtwalrus]

Can I just say that I think it is a testament to how good of a coaching job Daz has done that we, as a fan bases, are even disappointed about only being 3-2 right now and maybe only winning 5-7 games. The fact that our expectations are back to competing for the Atlantic is only because of the fact that Daz has brought in better talent, gotten the most out of the talent that he has, and crafted a game plan that has made us competitive in almost every single game since he's arrived. How quickly we forget the apathy and resignation of 2012.

Calling bullshit on this one. Good, aggressive coaching might have won 10 games and the Atlantic last season.

Before you even get to sniff at 10 games a lot had to be done. First we had to get Spaz's mediocre talent (talent that won only 2 games two years earlier) to start playing up to and beyond their potential.
Daz did that.

Then you had to go out and convince a talented QB to transfer in to take a major chance on an unproven team.
Daz did that.

Then you have to completely re-scheme your offense to fit the talents of that QB who runs a different system and get your round-hole players to fit into a square-peg offense.
Daz did that.

Then, considering the razor thin margin given the talent differences, you need to play near perfect football (with very few turnovers, mistakes and penalties) to put yourself in positions to win games.
Daz did that.

Then you have to call the right plays to win the games.
Daz did that in many games. But yes, the trick-play at the end of the FSU game was probably a stupid call. The turtling offense at the end of the CSU and Syracuse games was probably a stupid call. You can blame Daz and his staff for this, but you better be giving him credit for all of the above.

EVEN STILL, even with the questionable calls, Daz still could've won 10 games last year if the players just made a few more plays.
Rouse had a Clemson win in his hands!
Murphy had a FSU win in his hands!
The defense had CSU and Penn State wins in their hands!

[dtwalrus]

i am actually surprised he didn't bring in another OL. maybe he had more confidence in the ol, as he's in denial about their play this season

no clue about who was out there but daz could've easily sold: come here for your 5th year and make the NFL

I agree on this. Especially when he named Lindstrom the starter. I get that Lindstrom has potential, but he's still a 260lbs freshman. That tells me more that Daz didn't like what he was seeing out of his veteran career backups. In retrospect I do wonder why he didn't fish for a transfer.

[eagle9903]

thanks, nospace. i now understand that one more year of being A MAN will help flutie, et al become better quarterbacks.

i'm sorry it took me so long to understand your argument. now that i know it is the wikipedia defense of manhood i will stay out of this discussion

I think the nospaceism was that you could basically take any guy of the street who was a good high school qb (e.g. Dave Shinskie) insert him into a college offense when he was 25 years old and he'd dominate solely based on life experience and physical maturity (no five banging five). That is obviously stupid.

Improvement of QB play over four years of time in a system/coaching/weight room/game experience is pretty definitively a thing in the vast majority of cases.

[b0mberMan]

Then you have to completely re-scheme your offense to fit the talents of that QB who runs a different system and get your round-hole players to fit into a square-peg offense.
Daz did that.

Last year was not fitting round pegs into square holes. Last year was realizing you had a bunch of square pegs so you drilled a square hole.

This year, with Wade down, continuing to try to run a balanced offense with Smith or Flutie is fitting round pegs into square holes.

[twballgame9]

Can I just say that I think it is a testament to how good of a coaching job Daz has done that we, as a fan bases, are even disappointed about only being 3-2 right now and maybe only winning 5-7 games. The fact that our expectations are back to competing for the Atlantic is only because of the fact that Daz has brought in better talent, gotten the most out of the talent that he has, and crafted a game plan that has made us competitive in almost every single game since he's arrived. How quickly we forget the apathy and resignation of 2012.

Calling bullshit on this one. Good, aggressive coaching might have won 10 games and the Atlantic last season.

Before you even get to sniff at 10 games a lot had to be done. First we had to get Spaz's mediocre talent (talent that won only 2 games two years earlier) to start playing up to and beyond their potential.
Daz did that.

Then you had to go out and convince a talented QB to transfer in to take a major chance on an unproven team.
Daz did that.

Then you have to completely re-scheme your offense to fit the talents of that QB who runs a different system and get your round-hole players to fit into a square-peg offense.
Daz did that.

Then, considering the razor thin margin to victory considering the talent differences, you need to play near perfect football (with very few turnovers, mistakes and penalties) to put yourself in positions to win games.
Daz did that.

Then you have to call the right plays to win the games.
Daz did that in many games. But yes, the trick-play at the end of the FSU game was probably a stupid call. The turtling offense at the end of the CSU and Syracuse games was probably a stupid call. You can blame Daz and his staff for this, but you better be giving him credit for all of the above.

If with the questionable calls, Daz still could've won 10 games last year if the players just made a few more plays.
Rouse had a Clemson win in his hands!
Murphy had a FSU win in his hands!
The defense had CSU and Syracuse wins in their hands!

Come on, walrus. "I'm a good coach because I should have won 10 with the talent I coached to 7 wins because I had to coach them to 7 in the first place and was thus too tired for that in-game coaching shit"

[dtwalrus]

thanks, nospace. i now understand that one more year of being A MAN will help flutie, et al become better quarterbacks.

To be fair, it's entirely possible that Flutie will get better after he hits puberty

This is what I keep telling people!!!

[claver2010]

i am actually surprised he didn't bring in another OL. maybe he had more confidence in the ol, as he's in denial about their play this season

no clue about who was out there but daz could've easily sold: come here for your 5th year and make the NFL

The lack of potential candidates is a pretty big problem if applicable. People mentioned Trip Thurman from Florida, but he is their starting LG so I can see why he maybe didn't want to transfer.

certainly fair. i just assumed given the explosion of 5th year transfers ( ) there were viable candidates and daz would have one of the better recruiting pitches around.

[twballgame9]

thanks, nospace. i now understand that one more year of being A MAN will help flutie, et al become better quarterbacks.

i'm sorry it took me so long to understand your argument. now that i know it is the wikipedia defense of manhood i will stay out of this discussion

I think the nospaceism was that you could basically take any guy of the street who was a good high school qb (e.g. Dave Shinskie) insert him into a college offense when he was 25 years old and he'd dominate solely based on life experience and physical maturity (no five banging five). That is obviously stupid.

Improvement of QB play over four years of time in a system/coaching/weight room/game experience is pretty definitively a thing in the vast majority of cases.

Again agree with the Merrymen on this one. At least with Intern, not sure walrus knows what is going on.

[TobaccoRoadEagle]

thanks, nospace. i now understand that one more year of being A MAN will help flutie, et al become better quarterbacks.

i'm sorry it took me so long to understand your argument. now that i know it is the wikipedia defense of manhood i will stay out of this discussion

I think the nospaceism was that you could basically take any guy of the street who was a good high school qb (e.g. Dave Shinskie) insert him into a college offense when he was 25 years old and he'd dominate solely based on life experience and physical maturity (no five banging five). That is obviously stupid.

Improvement of QB play over four years of time in a system/coaching/weight room/game experience is pretty definitively a thing in the vast majority of cases.

you keep answering me on sports related posts. it's got to be killing you.

don't worry, i'm growing bored of this discussion and will be back to posting dude's butts and weeners soon

[eagle9903]

thanks, nospace. i now understand that one more year of being A MAN will help flutie, et al become better quarterbacks.

i'm sorry it took me so long to understand your argument. now that i know it is the wikipedia defense of manhood i will stay out of this discussion

I think the nospaceism was that you could basically take any guy of the street who was a good high school qb (e.g. Dave Shinskie) insert him into a college offense when he was 25 years old and he'd dominate solely based on life experience and physical maturity (no five banging five). That is obviously stupid.

Improvement of QB play over four years of time in a system/coaching/weight room/game experience is pretty definitively a thing in the vast majority of cases.

you keep answering me on sports related posts. it's got to be killing you.

don't worry, i'm growing bored of this discussion and will be back to posting dude's butts and weeners soon

I can't believe you picked Wake week to get distracted from weener posting.

[dtwalrus]

Can I just say that I think it is a testament to how good of a coaching job Daz has done that we, as a fan bases, are even disappointed about only being 3-2 right now and maybe only winning 5-7 games. The fact that our expectations are back to competing for the Atlantic is only because of the fact that Daz has brought in better talent, gotten the most out of the talent that he has, and crafted a game plan that has made us competitive in almost every single game since he's arrived. How quickly we forget the apathy and resignation of 2012.

Calling bullshit on this one. Good, aggressive coaching might have won 10 games and the Atlantic last season.

Before you even get to sniff at 10 games a lot had to be done. First we had to get Spaz's mediocre talent (talent that won only 2 games two years earlier) to start playing up to and beyond their potential.
Daz did that.

Then you had to go out and convince a talented QB to transfer in to take a major chance on an unproven team.
Daz did that.

Then you have to completely re-scheme your offense to fit the talents of that QB who runs a different system and get your round-hole players to fit into a square-peg offense.
Daz did that.

Then, considering the razor thin margin to victory considering the talent differences, you need to play near perfect football (with very few turnovers, mistakes and penalties) to put yourself in positions to win games.
Daz did that.

Then you have to call the right plays to win the games.
Daz did that in many games. But yes, the trick-play at the end of the FSU game was probably a stupid call. The turtling offense at the end of the CSU and Syracuse games was probably a stupid call. You can blame Daz and his staff for this, but you better be giving him credit for all of the above.

If with the questionable calls, Daz still could've won 10 games last year if the players just made a few more plays.
Rouse had a Clemson win in his hands!
Murphy had a FSU win in his hands!
The defense had CSU and Syracuse wins in their hands!

Come on, walrus. "I'm a good coach because I should have won 10 with the talent I coached to 7 wins because I had to coach them to 7 in the first place and was thus too tired for that in-game coaching shit"

But here's an important distinction: I don't think anyone was happy with 7 wins last year. Daz's reaction wasn't a smarmy shrug and we-are-what-we-are like we heard from Spaz. Daz was pissed about not winning 10. I'm sure he's pored over what went wrong in the CSU, FSU, Clemson and Penn State games. I was disappointed by 2014 but on the whole I still appreciated how much more entertaining, competitive and promising the program was. Whether Daz is a good coach is more than just win total and it's more than just time-management at the end of the half.

And again, stop judging it based on the QB controversy. Seriously, somebody give me one example at either the college or pro level where a coach had only 2 QB's on the roster, both of whom are in the bottom 5% of their respective leagues in terms of talent and experience, but then one of those QB's magically flourished because they were "named the starter."

[TobaccoRoadEagle]

[... a coach had only 2 QB's on the roster, both of whom are in the bottom 5% of their respective leagues in terms of talent and experience...

well this settles it. anyone that could get themselves in this position due to one injury at the most injury prone position is clearly a great coach

[dtwalrus]

[... a coach had only 2 QB's on the roster, both of whom are in the bottom 5% of their respective leagues in terms of talent and experience...

well this settles it. anyone that could get themselves in this position due to one injury at the most injury prone position is clearly a great coach

I'll just keep posting the list of Spaz QB recruiting classes that should be upperclassmen helping to fill out the QB depth on the roster right now:

2011: Christian Suntrup - transferred
2012: NONE
2013: Mackie Lowry and James Walsh -- transferred