Joe Paterno dies at 85

[joemack13]

Paterno knew the Sandman diddled children. He didn't do anything. In fact if could be reasonably argued he enabled further diddling. I view that as a very poor lapse in judgment that significantly alters my ability to view that person in a positive light. I'm sad that you feel otherwise, though given your previous posts, it doesn't surprise me that you are creating your own narrative to suit the idea that you personally want in your head of Paterno.

I suspect he knew about Sandusky but I really don't know what he knew, who he told and what he was told. He is on the record as doing something, telling his superiors.

He could have/should have done more to out Sandusky but unfortunately, not all men are heros and will risk sacrificing everything to make sure justice is served/children are protected. Paterno was clearly a great football coach, but not a hero. Yes, this should not ignored when considering his legacy, however, it doesn't automatically negate all of his other accomplishments of which there were many.

But I certainly understand your and others' opinion and have no issue with it.

I think your problem is that you think "heros" would lift a finger to stop a child rapist, but a normal person turns a blind eye at the slightest inconvenience. A normal person does not ignore child rape.

The guy lived longer than most, he may have contributed to the suffering of dozens. I really don't care about his death.

[EagleNYC]

What we think we know and the evidence is damning: Sandusky is a slimey, sick, freaky child rapist weirdo who should be behind bars and should have been years ago. It was reported to civil authorities and Penn State by others well before McGready’s shower report. Sandusky was not prosecuted. McGready personally witnessed what he believed was rape and waited a period of time, consulted his dad before going to his boss Paterno. Went to Paterno, Paterno acted on the second hand information and reported it to his superiors. Paterno never witnessed any acts first hand, Paterno never raped or had inappropriate relationships with young boys. Paterno was a great football coach, one of the best ever in the college game. Paterno admitted he should have done more. Which he should have but, many are assuming that he had some super official power over PSU and use of it's facilities. I think by the time all of this shit hit the fan, Paterno probably napped in his office 5 hours a day, drank prune juice and talked about the good ole days to anyone who would listen. I don't think he was very observant or even aware of some guy sneaking kids into the shower at 9:00 at night, calling many if any shots and he certainly didn't have administrators quaking in their boots.

Did Paterno have a serious, serious lapse in judgment, yes, does in automatically negate all of the good things he brought to college football? Does it make him an enabler? I don’t think so.

The best part about your explanation is that he still turned a blind eye to it even though he had the power to either do something more proactive about it or at least monitor the problem so that on the off chance it was true, it wouldn't happen again or would be handled if the proof became sufficient. And then he's off the hook when the shit hits the fan because he's a batty old man? Unreal.

Agreed. Just because he may have been asleep at the switch doesn't excuse him.

[eagletx]

I wish the man eternal peace...and wonder if the Administration/BOT at PSU regret at all today the venial and fraudulent manner in which they fired the man; they didn't even afford him the dignity, after 60 years of generosity and service, to fire him face to face. In my mind, PSU shall long live under the shadow of that hypocrisy, equal to the apparent practice of overlooking the evils of Sandusky.

Hiding a kiddie diddler kinda strips you from the ability to be fired with dignity.

Do you thing he actually hid him?

No he hid the story. Use your head for once you dumbass.

Never let facts or lack thereof get in the way of the opportunity to see your tag name in print....but then again, that's what this forum is all about, no?

This is pretty smug for a statement that is by no means conclusively correct. Don't confuse your inability to get people to agree with your opinions with their inability to grasp facts.

The height of "smugness" is stating conclusively something as "fact" to preempt discussion.....hence the problem with all the garbage surrounding Penn St. I for one have a real problem with the "facts" surrounding what Mike McQueary saw or didn't see...using media accounts as a guide he either did or didn't see something, he either did or didn't directly intervene to stop what he allegedly saw, he either did or didn't report to police, he either did or didn't describe to the grand jury exactly what he later described to Paterno, and the higher ups in administration. What is "fact" apparently is that McQueary, after supposedly witnessing the most grusome of child abuse, continued to "socialize" with Sandusky at golf and promotional events, saw Sandusky regularly in PSU facilities, etc...Now if that doesn't suggest that something is rotting in the story that the media has thus far portrayed, or says something about Mike McQueary perhaps, I don't know what does.

Don't get me wrong, even what Sandusky has admitted to is repugnant and outrageous; my whole point is that in a situation that is seemingly filled with contradictions and inconsistencies, most of which are vested with the guy who set this all in motion, (McQueary), I think that anyone who dismisses Paterno as one who "hid the story" and thereby by implication covers up for a "diddler" and in the process dismisses a 60 year service to an organization is the dumbass.... Just as the decision makes at PSU have portrayed themselves

[pick6pedro]

Why does every defender of JoePa bring up 60 years of service or that people are supposedly diminishing it as if that's somehow relevant?

[Endless Mike]

Why does every defender of JoePa bring up 60 years of service or that people are supposedly diminishing it as if that's somehow relevant?

The longer you are at a place, the more stuff you can get away with. It's like accruing vacation time. It's why Spaz will never retire.

[BCFAN94]

What we think we know and the evidence is damning: Sandusky is a slimey, sick, freaky child rapist weirdo who should be behind bars and should have been years ago. It was reported to civil authorities and Penn State by others well before McGready’s shower report. Sandusky was not prosecuted. McGready personally witnessed what he believed was rape and waited a period of time, consulted his dad before going to his boss Paterno. Went to Paterno, Paterno acted on the second hand information and reported it to his superiors. Paterno never witnessed any acts first hand, Paterno never raped or had inappropriate relationships with young boys. Paterno was a great football coach, one of the best ever in the college game. Paterno admitted he should have done more. Which he should have but, many are assuming that he had some super official power over PSU and use of it's facilities. I think by the time all of this shit hit the fan, Paterno probably napped in his office 5 hours a day, drank prune juice and talked about the good ole days to anyone who would listen. I don't think he was very observant or even aware of some guy sneaking kids into the shower at 9:00 at night, calling many if any shots and he certainly didn't have administrators quaking in their boots.

Did Paterno have a serious, serious lapse in judgment, yes, does in automatically negate all of the good things he brought to college football? Does it make him an enabler? I don’t think so.

The best part about your explanation is that he still turned a blind eye to it even though he had the power to either do something more proactive about it or at least monitor the problem so that on the off chance it was true, it wouldn't happen again or would be handled if the proof became sufficient. And then he's off the hook when the shit hits the fan because he's a batty old man? Unreal.

I didn't say he was off the hook as a matter of fact, I said he should have done more and because he acted cowardly (not a hero) in confronting the situation, it shouldn’t be ignored when considering his legacy.

But I think putting the responsibility on Paterno, detracts from what really happened:

Sandusky raped and molested children. He is the criminal.

Sandusky was reported directly to the university and police in 1998 by a mother of one of the victims. Paterno essentially fired Sandusky by telling him he would not be considered for the HC position.

McGready witnessed a crime and instead of going to the police, waited a few days and reported it to Paterno as his boss. Paterno had an employee report that something had happened in the shower (not clear if he called it rape at the time or that he even saw what was going on) with someone who was affiliated with the university but no a direct report of Paterno and he reported it to his superiors.

Sandusky was not affiliated with the football program and was given emeritus status and an on campus office by the university, not Paterno.
I think the responsibility list goes as follows:

1. Sandusky
2. The civil authorities
3. The university administration
4. McGready and ANYONE else who had first hand knowledge.
5. Paterno and all others who had second hand knowledge.

The point of the batty old man was not to excuse Paterno as much as it was to point out, that I don’t think he had as much juice within the university or with the authorities as everyone appears to be making him out to have. As a matter of fact, I think he was on thin ice with the administration and alumni since the late 90’s but was donating so much money to the university that they let him stay.

[b0mberMan]

of "smugness" is stating conclusively something as "fact" to preempt discussion.....hence the problem with all the garbage surrounding Penn St. I for one have a real problem with the "facts" surrounding what Mike McQueary saw or didn't see...using media accounts as a guide he either did or didn't see something, he either did or didn't directly intervene to stop what he allegedly saw, he either did or didn't report to police, he either did or didn't describe to the grand jury exactly what he later described to Paterno, and the higher ups in administration. What is "fact" apparently is that McQueary, after supposedly witnessing the most grusome of child abuse, continued to "socialize" with Sandusky at golf and promotional events, saw Sandusky regularly in PSU facilities, etc...Now if that doesn't suggest that something is rotting in the story that the media has thus far portrayed, or says something about Mike McQueary perhaps, I don't know what does.

Don't get me wrong, even what Sandusky has admitted to is repugnant and outrageous; my whole point is that in a situation that is seemingly filled with contradictions and inconsistencies, most of which are vested with the guy who set this all in motion, (McQueary), I think that anyone who dismisses Paterno as one who "hid the story" and thereby by implication covers up for a "diddler" and in the process dismisses a 60 year service to an organization is the dumbass.... Just as the decision makes at PSU have portrayed themselves

So if I follow this, you're saying that it's not necessarily fact that Joe Pa knew what was going on or didn't do what he was supposed to do? I really can't follow this. However, JoePa did go on record stating what he did in the situation:

But his legacy was clouded in the wake of a sexual abuse scandal that has resulted in 52 counts of child molestation against Sandusky. Paterno had announced his retirement early on Nov. 9, but the Penn State board of trustees fired him and university president Graham Spanier about 12 hours later. That day, Paterno called the scandal "one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more."

In his first public statements since the scandal broke, Paterno recently told The Washington Post that he did not know how to deal with the situation when he received a report from a graduate assistant that his former defensive coordinator was accused of abusing a boy in the showers.

"I didn't know exactly how to handle it and I was afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the university procedure was," he told The Post in an extensive two-day interview at his home in State College, Pa., that was released to the public on Jan. 14. "So I backed away and turned it over to some other people, people I thought would have a little more expertise than I did. It didn't work out that way."

So it does seem like someone made him aware of the situation, and he took the action that he has been reported to have taken. Does this help you any?

I really am confused by what your point is.

[pick6pedro]

What we think we know and the evidence is damning: Sandusky is a slimey, sick, freaky child rapist weirdo who should be behind bars and should have been years ago. It was reported to civil authorities and Penn State by others well before McGready’s shower report. Sandusky was not prosecuted. McGready personally witnessed what he believed was rape and waited a period of time, consulted his dad before going to his boss Paterno. Went to Paterno, Paterno acted on the second hand information and reported it to his superiors. Paterno never witnessed any acts first hand, Paterno never raped or had inappropriate relationships with young boys. Paterno was a great football coach, one of the best ever in the college game. Paterno admitted he should have done more. Which he should have but, many are assuming that he had some super official power over PSU and use of it's facilities. I think by the time all of this shit hit the fan, Paterno probably napped in his office 5 hours a day, drank prune juice and talked about the good ole days to anyone who would listen. I don't think he was very observant or even aware of some guy sneaking kids into the shower at 9:00 at night, calling many if any shots and he certainly didn't have administrators quaking in their boots.

Did Paterno have a serious, serious lapse in judgment, yes, does in automatically negate all of the good things he brought to college football? Does it make him an enabler? I don’t think so.

The best part about your explanation is that he still turned a blind eye to it even though he had the power to either do something more proactive about it or at least monitor the problem so that on the off chance it was true, it wouldn't happen again or would be handled if the proof became sufficient. And then he's off the hook when the shit hits the fan because he's a batty old man? Unreal.

I didn't say he was off the hook as a matter of fact, I said he should have done more and because he acted cowardly (not a hero) in confronting the situation, it shouldn’t be ignored when considering his legacy.

But I think putting the responsibility on Paterno, detracts from what really happened:

Sandusky raped and molested children. He is the criminal.

Sandusky was reported directly to the university and police in 1998 by a mother of one of the victims. Paterno essentially fired Sandusky by telling him he would not be considered for the HC position.

McGready witnessed a crime and instead of going to the police, waited a few days and reported it to Paterno as his boss. Paterno had an employee report that something had happened in the shower (not clear if he called it rape at the time or that he even saw what was going on) with someone who was affiliated with the university but no a direct report of Paterno and he reported it to his superiors.

Sandusky was not affiliated with the football program and was given emeritus status and an on campus office by the university, not Paterno.
I think the responsibility list goes as follows:

1. Sandusky
2. The civil authorities
3. The university administration
4. McGready and ANYONE else who had first hand knowledge.
5. Paterno and all others who had second hand knowledge.

The point of the batty old man was not to excuse Paterno as much as it was to point out, that I don’t think he had as much juice within the university or with the authorities as everyone appears to be making him out to have. As a matter of fact, I think he was on thin ice with the administration and alumni since the late 90’s but was donating so much money to the university that they let him stay.

No one is claiming that Paterno is the sole person responsible or the most at fault, so I'm not sure what your post accomplishes. Thanks for the essay though.

[eagle9903]

I believe prior to the Sandusky rapes, there were two prevalent views of Joe Paterno's capacity at Penn State post 2006ish.

1) He is a doddering old man with diminished mental capacities who no longer plays an active role in coaching, relies on his assistants for all aspects of his job, passively sits in the press box for some games(eventually all games), doesn't wear a headset and is being used as a prop by the athletic department for recruiting and fund raising; Evidence supporting this view --> all interviews since 2005 or 2006, Quarless injuring him in practice, running off the field to use the bathroom in 2006, removal from the field in favor of the pressbox, use of McQueery as offensive liason on field to Galen Hall, reaction to a series of disciplinary events by having his players clean the stadium while it was widely believed suspensions or even expulsions were necessary, perceived general loss of control of the program,
Austin Scott situation, diminishment of program competitiveness.

2) He uses his appearance as a doddering old man with diminished mental capacities to his advantage, but remained the most powerful man in State College. Evidence supporting this view --> not being fired or asked to retire, Keeping Jay Paterno despite near universal agreement of his terribleness, alleged covered up DUI incidents involving JoePa covered up, alleged other motor vehicle incidents involving JoePa covered up, allegedly keeping his players from getting in trouble by strong arming faculty and administrators.

I think if you found yourself 100% subscribing to the first view, you may find yourself sympathetic to a person who really was no more than a figurehead and took a lot of heat for something he had no real control over even if you believe he was aware of the situation. But if you believe the second, or some lesser variation of the second, it seems extremely unlikely that Paterno wasn't at least reckless in his conduct towards the safety of the Second Mile children.

Even if you think 1) is right, this goes back a long ways. It still strikes me as very strange that the top Defensive Coordinator in the country resigned in 1999, a year(or two?) after Courtney Brown and Lavar Arrington were the 1 and 2 picks respectively, never got a sniff of another job, but basically remained living in the sports complex. Something is very, very strange about that. It reads to me that he was asked to step down for off field reasons, I can see alternatives, but that is by far the most likely scenario in my mind.

[eagle9903]

Why does 94 keep calling McQueary "McGready"? Is this a typo or is it a pun on his name I'm completely whiffing on?

[eagle9903]

Can someone summarize the good things JoePa did? I can only come up with:

-donated to the library;
-donated a large part of his salary to Penn State;
-he talked a lot about having the right kind of kids and discipline, record is not really supportive of this, was clearly not a renegade program, but this is complicated, there have been many instances where it seems as if things were covered up due to PSU being in the middle of nowhere and the weight the football program carried locally;
-was a legendary football coach*

*morality neutral

[DavidGordonsFoot]

Why does 94 keep calling McQueary "McGready"? Is this a typo or is it a pun on his name I'm completely whiffing on?

I think he is confusing elements of one child sex abuse scandal (Sandusky) with another (Roger Clemens and Mindy McCready).

[hansen]

94 is the worst

And yet his karma is higher than mine. how do you guys think this makes me feel?

[DuchesneEast]

94 is the worst

And yet his karma is higher than mine. how do you guys think this makes me feel?

I always assumed you pissed off a colored name or Dickity.

[hansen]

94 is the worst

And yet his karma is higher than mine. how do you guys think this makes me feel?

I always assumed you pissed off a colored name or Dickity.

I think it's because I led a smite campaign against IB... i haven't been the same since. interestingly, at one point it was so bad that even my skank poll picks were getting negged.

[BCFAN94]

Why does 94 keep calling McQueary "McGready"? Is this a typo or is it a pun on his name I'm completely whiffing on?

I don't know the freakin guys name McGready, McQueary, who gives a crap, you know who I was referring to.

[eagletx]

I wish the man eternal peace...and wonder if the Administration/BOT at PSU regret at all today the venial and fraudulent manner in which they fired the man; they didn't even afford him the dignity, after 60 years of generosity and service, to fire him face to face. In my mind, PSU shall long live under the shadow of that hypocrisy, equal to the apparent practice of overlooking the evils of Sandusky.

Hiding a kiddie diddler kinda strips you from the ability to be fired with dignity.

Do you thing he actually hid him?

No he hid the story. Use your head for once you dumbass.

Never let facts or lack thereof get in the way of the opportunity to see your tag name in print....but then again, that's what this forum is all about, no?

The fact is, Paterno knew Sandusky was nailing a kid in the shower and let him continue to coach kids on campus for another 7+ years. That is a fact.

I am not sure Paterno "let" him do anything. If anything this whole situation has revealed that Paterno was not quite the power broker that people think he was.

People in goofy nude costumes with a young girl handling her dad's costume's appendage in wonderment: disgusting child porn, A coach that reported a child rapist who was given access to the colleges facilities by the college's administration even after it was reported to them by that coach and even after the coach said he would not be in line for his job is on the administration, is a serious error in coaches judgment and history shows that coach did not have the courage to step up and speak out louder. He should have gone public when it was apparent when the administration was not taking the problem seriously; he should have been Mitch McDeere. Unfortunately, he was just an old guy in his late 60s who was in pictures with a load in his pants all over the interwebs who let himself believe, who knows what.

What we think we know and the evidence is damning: Sandusky is a slimey, sick, freaky child rapist weirdo who should be behind bars and should have been years ago. It was reported to civil authorities and Penn State by others well before McGready’s shower report. Sandusky was not prosecuted. McGready personally witnessed what he believed was rape and waited a period of time, consulted his dad before going to his boss Paterno. Went to Paterno, Paterno acted on the second hand information and reported it to his superiors. Paterno never witnessed any acts first hand, Paterno never raped or had inappropriate relationships with young boys. Paterno was a great football coach, one of the best ever in the college game. Paterno admitted he should have done more. Which he should have but, many are assuming that he had some super official power over PSU and use of it's facilities. I think by the time all of this shit hit the fan, Paterno probably napped in his office 5 hours a day, drank prune juice and talked about the good ole days to anyone who would listen. I don't think he was very observant or even aware of some guy sneaking kids into the shower at 9:00 at night, calling many if any shots and he certainly didn't have administrators quaking in their boots.

Did Paterno have a serious, serious lapse in judgment, yes, does in automatically negate all of the good things he brought to college football? Does it make him an enabler? I don’t think so.

This, and we only know what has been reported and what appears in grand jury testimony.
I personally believe that Paterno and McQueary and anyone one else who was aware of allegations and did not report them to the police are candidates for serious lapses in judgement and are subject to dismissal. I have an issue with the manner in which PSU authorities apparently acted once given actionable information of such a serious nature. I have an issue with PSU authorities not supplying some level of discretion, that is, by calling Paterno in and dismissing him face to face, in person. I believe he was owed that. Reports say that once paterno called the mysterious number on the phone and was fired, his wife called the university to question their methods, and they hung up on her.
I believe Mike McQueary should be held to the exact same standard as paterno, as his response to the circumstances was also seriously lacking. If he witnessed a boy being raped, as he claims, he should have gone to the police. PERIOD! He chose instead to report what he alleged to have witnessed first hand, and supposedly stopped in progress according to some accounts to his superior, and walked away. Paterno was fired unceremoniously for taking that same action. McQueary was placed on administrative leave. Why wasn't he fired? He instead chose to participate in PSU events with a person he claims to have seen raping a boy months afterward. Now, by my way of thinking, that is a pretty bizarre pattern of behavior.
And then there is the issue of which of the 3 or 4 versions of what McQueary said he saw and did, and what he subsequently reported he saw to superiors, or what he related to friends in emails after the fact....So my point is that everyone and anyone who had info and didn't act decisively should be dismissed, and suffer the consequences. I find it odd that McQueary is being treated differently, especially in view of his being the only alleged first had witness to a serious crime. I suspect that he is being treated with "kid gloves" possibly based on what he may have told various PSU admins who failed to act decisively. If they fired him, theoretically he might come back with guns firing in a legal venue, and PSU would just assume keep some details hidden from public view at this point. Personally, I think his lack of definitive action (that is going to police to report a rape he says he witnessed and stopped first hand), is at least as serious and as troubling a "look the other way" as anyone else.

[BCFAN94]

Where is this guy?

[HustlinOwl]

Where is this guy?

Maybe hanging out with his family.

[flyingelvii]

I wish the man eternal peace...and wonder if the Administration/BOT at PSU regret at all today the venial and fraudulent manner in which they fired the man; they didn't even afford him the dignity, after 60 years of generosity and service, to fire him face to face. In my mind, PSU shall long live under the shadow of that hypocrisy, equal to the apparent practice of overlooking the evils of Sandusky.

Hiding a kiddie diddler kinda strips you from the ability to be fired with dignity.

Do you thing he actually hid him?

No he hid the story. Use your head for once you dumbass.

Never let facts or lack thereof get in the way of the opportunity to see your tag name in print....but then again, that's what this forum is all about, no?

The fact is, Paterno knew Sandusky was nailing a kid in the shower and let him continue to coach kids on campus for another 7+ years. That is a fact.

I am not sure Paterno "let" him do anything. If anything this whole situation has revealed that Paterno was not quite the power broker that people think he was.

People in goofy nude costumes with a young girl handling her dad's costume's appendage in wonderment: disgusting child porn, A coach that reported a child rapist who was given access to the colleges facilities by the college's administration even after it was reported to them by that coach and even after the coach said he would not be in line for his job is on the administration, is a serious error in coaches judgment and history shows that coach did not have the courage to step up and speak out louder. He should have gone public when it was apparent when the administration was not taking the problem seriously; he should have been Mitch McDeere. Unfortunately, he was just an old guy in his late 60s who was in pictures with a load in his pants all over the interwebs who let himself believe, who knows what.

What we think we know and the evidence is damning: Sandusky is a slimey, sick, freaky child rapist weirdo who should be behind bars and should have been years ago. It was reported to civil authorities and Penn State by others well before McGready’s shower report. Sandusky was not prosecuted. McGready personally witnessed what he believed was rape and waited a period of time, consulted his dad before going to his boss Paterno. Went to Paterno, Paterno acted on the second hand information and reported it to his superiors. Paterno never witnessed any acts first hand, Paterno never raped or had inappropriate relationships with young boys. Paterno was a great football coach, one of the best ever in the college game. Paterno admitted he should have done more. Which he should have but, many are assuming that he had some super official power over PSU and use of it's facilities. I think by the time all of this shit hit the fan, Paterno probably napped in his office 5 hours a day, drank prune juice and talked about the good ole days to anyone who would listen. I don't think he was very observant or even aware of some guy sneaking kids into the shower at 9:00 at night, calling many if any shots and he certainly didn't have administrators quaking in their boots.

Did Paterno have a serious, serious lapse in judgment, yes, does in automatically negate all of the good things he brought to college football? Does it make him an enabler? I don’t think so.

This, and we only know what has been reported and what appears in grand jury testimony.
I personally believe that Paterno and McQueary and anyone one else who was aware of allegations and did not report them to the police are candidates for serious lapses in judgement and are subject to dismissal. I have an issue with the manner in which PSU authorities apparently acted once given actionable information of such a serious nature. I have an issue with PSU authorities not supplying some level of discretion, that is, by calling Paterno in and dismissing him face to face, in person. I believe he was owed that. Reports say that once paterno called the mysterious number on the phone and was fired, his wife called the university to question their methods, and they hung up on her.
I believe Mike McQueary should be held to the exact same standard as paterno, as his response to the circumstances was also seriously lacking. If he witnessed a boy being raped, as he claims, he should have gone to the police. PERIOD! He chose instead to report what he alleged to have witnessed first hand, and supposedly stopped in progress according to some accounts to his superior, and walked away. Paterno was fired unceremoniously for taking that same action. McQueary was placed on administrative leave. Why wasn't he fired? He instead chose to participate in PSU events with a person he claims to have seen raping a boy months afterward. Now, by my way of thinking, that is a pretty bizarre pattern of behavior.
And then there is the issue of which of the 3 or 4 versions of what McQueary said he saw and did, and what he subsequently reported he saw to superiors, or what he related to friends in emails after the fact....So my point is that everyone and anyone who had info and didn't act decisively should be dismissed, and suffer the consequences. I find it odd that McQueary is being treated differently, especially in view of his being the only alleged first had witness to a serious crime. I suspect that he is being treated with "kid gloves" possibly based on what he may have told various PSU admins who failed to act decisively. If they fired him, theoretically he might come back with guns firing in a legal venue, and PSU would just assume keep some details hidden from public view at this point. Personally, I think his lack of definitive action (that is going to police to report a rape he says he witnessed and stopped first hand), is at least as serious and as troubling a "look the other way" as anyone else.

McQueary isn't being treated differently. It's just that nobody really gives a rat's ass about McQueary, especailly in comparison to Paterno.

[eagle9903]

I have an issue with PSU authorities not supplying some level of discretion, that is, by calling Paterno in and dismissing him face to face, in person. I believe he was owed that. Reports say that once paterno called the mysterious number on the phone and was fired, his wife called the university to question their methods, and they hung up on her.

You believe the above happened exactly as you stated it, but don't believe that Paterno knew Sandusky was a child rapist? There is not even inconsistent grand jury testimony about who called whom at the Paterno household.

I believe Mike McQueary should be held to the exact same standard as paterno as his response to the circumstances was also seriously lacking. If he witnessed a boy being raped, as he claims, he should have gone to the police. PERIOD! He chose instead to report what he alleged to have witnessed first hand, and supposedly stopped in progress according to some accounts to his superior, and walked away. Paterno was fired unceremoniously for taking that same action. McQueary was placed on administrative leave. Why wasn't he fired? He instead chose to participate in PSU events with a person he claims to have seen raping a boy months afterward. Now, by my way of thinking, that is a pretty bizarre pattern of behavior.
And then there is the issue of which of the 3 or 4 versions of what McQueary said he saw and did, and what he subsequently reported he saw to superiors, or what he related to friends in emails after the fact....So my point is that everyone and anyone who had info and didn't act decisively should be dismissed, and suffer the consequences. I find it odd that McQueary is being treated differently, especially in view of his being the only alleged first had witness to a serious crime. I suspect that he is being treated with "kid gloves" possibly based on what he may have told various PSU admins who failed to act decisively. If they fired him, theoretically he might come back with guns firing in a legal venue, and PSU would just assume keep some details hidden from public view at this point. Personally, I think his lack of definitive action (that is going to police to report a rape he says he witnessed and stopped first hand), is at least as serious and as troubling a "look the other way" as anyone else.

McQueary is extremely culpable and I think many people have ripped him for his behavior. He will never coach again. He is a pariah in State College. He is probably the most hated person in that area other than Sandusky. Nationally, he is less a target than Paterno because no one knew who he was before all of this. He was that red haired guy who relayed the plays to the offense on TV. Paterno is the has the most wins of any coach in D-1 college football, McQueary was a former less than mediocre college QB who became an assistant football coach. In short, it seems like they are both terrible.

Personally, I believe McQueary didn't act because it would be damaging to his career, but you know who that implicates? Paterno.

Also are there any circumstances where the relativity of awfulness mitigates the conduct of the less bad actor?

[eagle9903]

What we think we know and the evidence is damning: Sandusky is a slimey, sick, freaky child rapist weirdo who should be behind bars and should have been years ago. It was reported to civil authorities and Penn State by others well before McGready’s shower report. Sandusky was not prosecuted. McGready personally witnessed what he believed was rape and waited a period of time, consulted his dad before going to his boss Paterno. Went to Paterno, Paterno acted on the second hand information and reported it to his superiors. Paterno never witnessed any acts first hand, Paterno never raped or had inappropriate relationships with young boys. Paterno was a great football coach, one of the best ever in the college game. Paterno admitted he should have done more. Which he should have but, many are assuming that he had some super official power over PSU and use of it's facilities. I think by the time all of this shit hit the fan, Paterno probably napped in his office 5 hours a day, drank prune juice and talked about the good ole days to anyone who would listen. I don't think he was very observant or even aware of some guy sneaking kids into the shower at 9:00 at night, calling many if any shots and he certainly didn't have administrators quaking in their boots.

Did Paterno have a serious, serious lapse in judgment, yes, does in automatically negate all of the good things he brought to college football? Does it make him an enabler? I don’t think so.

One of the sentences above is the real reason you're making your argument, can you tell me which one?

[pick6pedro]

I wish the man eternal peace...and wonder if the Administration/BOT at PSU regret at all today the venial and fraudulent manner in which they fired the man; they didn't even afford him the dignity, after 60 years of generosity and service, to fire him face to face. In my mind, PSU shall long live under the shadow of that hypocrisy, equal to the apparent practice of overlooking the evils of Sandusky.

Hiding a kiddie diddler kinda strips you from the ability to be fired with dignity.

Do you thing he actually hid him?

No he hid the story. Use your head for once you dumbass.

Never let facts or lack thereof get in the way of the opportunity to see your tag name in print....but then again, that's what this forum is all about, no?

The fact is, Paterno knew Sandusky was nailing a kid in the shower and let him continue to coach kids on campus for another 7+ years. That is a fact.

I am not sure Paterno "let" him do anything. If anything this whole situation has revealed that Paterno was not quite the power broker that people think he was.

People in goofy nude costumes with a young girl handling her dad's costume's appendage in wonderment: disgusting child porn, A coach that reported a child rapist who was given access to the colleges facilities by the college's administration even after it was reported to them by that coach and even after the coach said he would not be in line for his job is on the administration, is a serious error in coaches judgment and history shows that coach did not have the courage to step up and speak out louder. He should have gone public when it was apparent when the administration was not taking the problem seriously; he should have been Mitch McDeere. Unfortunately, he was just an old guy in his late 60s who was in pictures with a load in his pants all over the interwebs who let himself believe, who knows what.

What we think we know and the evidence is damning: Sandusky is a slimey, sick, freaky child rapist weirdo who should be behind bars and should have been years ago. It was reported to civil authorities and Penn State by others well before McGready’s shower report. Sandusky was not prosecuted. McGready personally witnessed what he believed was rape and waited a period of time, consulted his dad before going to his boss Paterno. Went to Paterno, Paterno acted on the second hand information and reported it to his superiors. Paterno never witnessed any acts first hand, Paterno never raped or had inappropriate relationships with young boys. Paterno was a great football coach, one of the best ever in the college game. Paterno admitted he should have done more. Which he should have but, many are assuming that he had some super official power over PSU and use of it's facilities. I think by the time all of this shit hit the fan, Paterno probably napped in his office 5 hours a day, drank prune juice and talked about the good ole days to anyone who would listen. I don't think he was very observant or even aware of some guy sneaking kids into the shower at 9:00 at night, calling many if any shots and he certainly didn't have administrators quaking in their boots.

Did Paterno have a serious, serious lapse in judgment, yes, does in automatically negate all of the good things he brought to college football? Does it make him an enabler? I don’t think so.

This, and we only know what has been reported and what appears in grand jury testimony.
I personally believe that Paterno and McQueary and anyone one else who was aware of allegations and did not report them to the police are candidates for serious lapses in judgement and are subject to dismissal. I have an issue with the manner in which PSU authorities apparently acted once given actionable information of such a serious nature. I have an issue with PSU authorities not supplying some level of discretion, that is, by calling Paterno in and dismissing him face to face, in person. I believe he was owed that. Reports say that once paterno called the mysterious number on the phone and was fired, his wife called the university to question their methods, and they hung up on her.
I believe Mike McQueary should be held to the exact same standard as paterno, as his response to the circumstances was also seriously lacking. If he witnessed a boy being raped, as he claims, he should have gone to the police. PERIOD! He chose instead to report what he alleged to have witnessed first hand, and supposedly stopped in progress according to some accounts to his superior, and walked away. Paterno was fired unceremoniously for taking that same action. McQueary was placed on administrative leave. Why wasn't he fired? He instead chose to participate in PSU events with a person he claims to have seen raping a boy months afterward. Now, by my way of thinking, that is a pretty bizarre pattern of behavior.
And then there is the issue of which of the 3 or 4 versions of what McQueary said he saw and did, and what he subsequently reported he saw to superiors, or what he related to friends in emails after the fact....So my point is that everyone and anyone who had info and didn't act decisively should be dismissed, and suffer the consequences. I find it odd that McQueary is being treated differently, especially in view of his being the only alleged first had witness to a serious crime. I suspect that he is being treated with "kid gloves" possibly based on what he may have told various PSU admins who failed to act decisively. If they fired him, theoretically he might come back with guns firing in a legal venue, and PSU would just assume keep some details hidden from public view at this point. Personally, I think his lack of definitive action (that is going to police to report a rape he says he witnessed and stopped first hand), is at least as serious and as troubling a "look the other way" as anyone else.

Again, why must an evaluation of Paterno's failings have to come down to a look a the degree of fault for the other actors? Why are that or his record as a college football coach relevant?

[eagletx]

I wish the man eternal peace...and wonder if the Administration/BOT at PSU regret at all today the venial and fraudulent manner in which they fired the man; they didn't even afford him the dignity, after 60 years of generosity and service, to fire him face to face. In my mind, PSU shall long live under the shadow of that hypocrisy, equal to the apparent practice of overlooking the evils of Sandusky.

Hiding a kiddie diddler kinda strips you from the ability to be fired with dignity.

Do you thing he actually hid him?

No he hid the story. Use your head for once you dumbass.

Never let facts or lack thereof get in the way of the opportunity to see your tag name in print....but then again, that's what this forum is all about, no?

The fact is, Paterno knew Sandusky was nailing a kid in the shower and let him continue to coach kids on campus for another 7+ years. That is a fact.

I am not sure Paterno "let" him do anything. If anything this whole situation has revealed that Paterno was not quite the power broker that people think he was.

People in goofy nude costumes with a young girl handling her dad's costume's appendage in wonderment: disgusting child porn, A coach that reported a child rapist who was given access to the colleges facilities by the college's administration even after it was reported to them by that coach and even after the coach said he would not be in line for his job is on the administration, is a serious error in coaches judgment and history shows that coach did not have the courage to step up and speak out louder. He should have gone public when it was apparent when the administration was not taking the problem seriously; he should have been Mitch McDeere. Unfortunately, he was just an old guy in his late 60s who was in pictures with a load in his pants all over the interwebs who let himself believe, who knows what.

What we think we know and the evidence is damning: Sandusky is a slimey, sick, freaky child rapist weirdo who should be behind bars and should have been years ago. It was reported to civil authorities and Penn State by others well before McGready’s shower report. Sandusky was not prosecuted. McGready personally witnessed what he believed was rape and waited a period of time, consulted his dad before going to his boss Paterno. Went to Paterno, Paterno acted on the second hand information and reported it to his superiors. Paterno never witnessed any acts first hand, Paterno never raped or had inappropriate relationships with young boys. Paterno was a great football coach, one of the best ever in the college game. Paterno admitted he should have done more. Which he should have but, many are assuming that he had some super official power over PSU and use of it's facilities. I think by the time all of this shit hit the fan, Paterno probably napped in his office 5 hours a day, drank prune juice and talked about the good ole days to anyone who would listen. I don't think he was very observant or even aware of some guy sneaking kids into the shower at 9:00 at night, calling many if any shots and he certainly didn't have administrators quaking in their boots.

Did Paterno have a serious, serious lapse in judgment, yes, does in automatically negate all of the good things he brought to college football? Does it make him an enabler? I don’t think so.

This, and we only know what has been reported and what appears in grand jury testimony.
I personally believe that Paterno and McQueary and anyone one else who was aware of allegations and did not report them to the police are candidates for serious lapses in judgement and are subject to dismissal. I have an issue with the manner in which PSU authorities apparently acted once given actionable information of such a serious nature. I have an issue with PSU authorities not supplying some level of discretion, that is, by calling Paterno in and dismissing him face to face, in person. I believe he was owed that. Reports say that once paterno called the mysterious number on the phone and was fired, his wife called the university to question their methods, and they hung up on her.
I believe Mike McQueary should be held to the exact same standard as paterno, as his response to the circumstances was also seriously lacking. If he witnessed a boy being raped, as he claims, he should have gone to the police. PERIOD! He chose instead to report what he alleged to have witnessed first hand, and supposedly stopped in progress according to some accounts to his superior, and walked away. Paterno was fired unceremoniously for taking that same action. McQueary was placed on administrative leave. Why wasn't he fired? He instead chose to participate in PSU events with a person he claims to have seen raping a boy months afterward. Now, by my way of thinking, that is a pretty bizarre pattern of behavior.
And then there is the issue of which of the 3 or 4 versions of what McQueary said he saw and did, and what he subsequently reported he saw to superiors, or what he related to friends in emails after the fact....So my point is that everyone and anyone who had info and didn't act decisively should be dismissed, and suffer the consequences. I find it odd that McQueary is being treated differently, especially in view of his being the only alleged first had witness to a serious crime. I suspect that he is being treated with "kid gloves" possibly based on what he may have told various PSU admins who failed to act decisively. If they fired him, theoretically he might come back with guns firing in a legal venue, and PSU would just assume keep some details hidden from public view at this point. Personally, I think his lack of definitive action (that is going to police to report a rape he says he witnessed and stopped first hand), is at least as serious and as troubling a "look the other way" as anyone else.

Again, why must an evaluation of Paterno's failings have to come down to a look a the degree of fault for the other actors? Why are that or his record as a college football coach relevant?

A judgement of paterno's failings doesn't change in relative light of anyone else. He was fired, and deservedly so. But quite frankly, he was fired unceremoniously 8 or 10 years after the fact, and based on the heresay testimony of an alleged eyewitness who has done little or nothing in followup to a in 8 or 10 years, himself, and who is as quilty as paterno in his inaction.

What does bear criticism is the relative manner in which others have been judged and disposed of for the same (or in my opinion, worse) failings. I think hypocrisy on PSU part is what I am making a point about, not making a case for paterno to be pardoned. If you read what I said, anyone, including any BOT members who were aware of the alleged abuse, and did not take direct action to have it investigated are all subject to the same judgement and penalty.

But what we know, and what we THINK we know are quite different...No one but McQueary knows what he told Paterno, exactly. I'm not even sure McQueary recalls exactly, based on his sown multiple different versions of what he did or didn't do or say. My point is simple. McQueary, if he saw a rape occur, he goes direct to the police.

(Or maybe you think this scenario is justifiable: "Daddy, I saw someone at work shoot someone in the head!"; Daddy: "Oh gee, you should go report that to your boss".)

[1413overut]

Not to break this thread up, but back in the 70's Paterno continually thwarted attempts by BC (Bill Flynn), Pitt, Syracuse, WV to form an eastern football conference. Sure I understand it was to PSU's advantage not to and it kept secure his recruiting base, but maybe a little foresight and less selfishness towards the 80s and conference alignment now would be different. Certainly it would have created a strong conference in the east that would have been harder to pick clean.

[eagle9903]

A judgement of paterno's failings doesn't change in relative light of anyone else. He was fired, and deservedly so. But quite frankly, he was fired unceremoniously 8 or 10 years after the fact, and based on the heresay testimony of an alleged eyewitness who has done little or nothing in followup to a in 8 or 10 years, himself, and who is as quilty as paterno in his inaction.

What does bear criticism is the relative manner in which others have been judged and disposed of for the same (or in my opinion, worse) failings. I think hypocrisy on PSU part is what I am making a point about, not making a case for paterno to be pardoned. If you read what I said, anyone, including any BOT members who were aware of the alleged abuse, and did not take direct action to have it investigated are all subject to the same judgement and penalty.

But what we know, and what we THINK we know are quite different...No one but McQueary knows what he told Paterno, exactly. I'm not even sure McQueary recalls exactly, based on his sown multiple different versions of what he did or didn't do or say. My point is simple. McQueary, if he saw a rape occur, he goes direct to the police.

(Or maybe you think this scenario is justifiable: "Daddy, I saw someone at work shoot someone in the head!"; Daddy: "Oh gee, you should go report that to your boss".)

1) Spanier, Curley, Schultz and McQueery are all professionally screwed forever, all but McQueary were fired and he would have been had he not been a whistle blower. JoePa was not any less culpable than any of them, nor any more harshly treated. Nor was he more culpable as you've noted.

2) Paterno reported to Athletic Director Tim Curley, saying the graduate assistant had seen Sandusky "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy." That should be the base line minimum of what McQueary told Paterno. To me that is sufficient to justify the public opinion lynching.

3) I'm sure this is not the first instance of an employee seeing their powerful employer doing something untoward and not acting in a morally acceptable manner out of fear or in exchange for personal gain. I don't find McQueary to be the least bit lacking in credibility. His changes in testimony are, in my opinion, just as likely due to the fact that people were saying they wanted to murder him for his lack of action as something else.

[PhillyandBCEagles]

I think by the time all of this shit hit the fan, Paterno probably napped in his office 5 hours a day, drank prune juice and talked about the good ole days to anyone who would listen.

[SeaCaptim]

I am convinced that Paterno greatness was largely a fraud. Paterno was a power monger, and used it to excess, and created the climate that allowed Sandusky to remain a monster for years if not decades. (Freeh's investigation is pointedly going back to like 85 even though it will be a phony investigation). Paterno talked a good game about academics etc. but looking at the deluge of player misconduct and watching his lack of disciplinary action, speaks volumes about what he was all about. The Paterno legend was a myth. He used his power as a typical corrupt tyrant and he was not only no better than the Jackie Sherrill types that he openly critized, but ended up becoming worse.

[eagletx]

Not to break this thread up, but back in the 70's Paterno continually thwarted attempts by BC (Bill Flynn), Pitt, Syracuse, WV to form an eastern football conference. Sure I understand it was to PSU's advantage not to and it kept secure his recruiting base, but maybe a little foresight and less selfishness towards the 80s and conference alignment now would be different. Certainly it would have created a strong conference in the east that would have been harder to pick clean.

Your facts are a bit incorrect, and the fault for this lies not with PSU, but was ultimately the fault of folks trying to form "Big East" football, as it has been since. Penn State wanted to be part of the basketball world of the Big East if they were to be part of the football Big East. The Big East thinkers said no, and Penn State consequently declined inclusion into a Big East football conference (as a badly needed anchor).

In the 70's the eastern football "conference" was mythical and notional only. There was a theoretical ECAC "champion" based on overall record of the teams you mentioned including Arm and Navy and Temple as well. It wasn't until after BE basketball had been formed and was successful that BE football conference was discussed as an afterthought for the football playing schools. Penn St. wanted all in or nothing. The BE refused to accept Penn St. into the BE basketball world. Be reminded that the BE has always compromised illogically to suit their narrow aims, (re: ND) and to the present, it is one of the reasons that it teeters on the brink of extinction.

[jdshagger]

I agree. Gavitt and his idiot Tranghese were very short sighted to block Penn State from the Big East - because they were'nt up to par in basketball.

Morons.