Being discussed on EA

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Being discussed on EA

Postby BIGDUKE6 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:15 pm

Should the new HC honor all scholarship commitments given to Spaz or make his own evaluations and revoke the offer if he sees fit ? Thoughts ?
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby HJS on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:20 pm

BIGDUKE6 wrote:Should the new HC honor all scholarship commitments given to Spaz or make his own evaluations and revoke the offer if he sees fit ? Thoughts ?

We've talked about it here already. My opinion (which I believe is in line with the board consensus) is that the new coach should be free to take or not take any of the verbals that Spazoo offered. That said, it wuld be beneficial for the next coach to keep the top half of the class for nothing more than maintaining a certain head count appropriate to run the program.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby eagle9903 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:30 pm

I see absolutely no upside to reneging on a scholarship.

It will create bad blood among high school coaches and create fuel for future negative recruitment. Further, it is unlikely, whoever the new coach, that they are going to be able to find better kids for this class on a global level due to a combination of timing and various reasons why a new coach will not have relationships already built with recruiting class of 2013 players. If the new coaches can find some upgrades I see no reason they couldn't be additions as opposed to replacements for this class. We're under the limit by a bit.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby DomingoOrtiz on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:38 pm

HJS wrote:
BIGDUKE6 wrote:Should the new HC honor all scholarship commitments given to Spaz or make his own evaluations and revoke the offer if he sees fit ? Thoughts ?

We've talked about it here already. My opinion (which I believe is in line with the board consensus) is that the new coach should be free to take or not take any of the verbals that Spazoo offered. That said, it wuld be beneficial for the next coach to keep the top half of the class for nothing more than maintaining a certain head count appropriate to run the program.



Looking at our commits, it is pretty hard to distinguish the top half from the bottom. I would put the 2 QBs and 2 RBs in the top and the rest in the bottom but that math doesn't work. We are in desperate need for bodies at so many positions.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby 31southst on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:46 pm

I think they should be honored but a coach is free to be honest, like Jags was with Kenny Plue (you can come if you want but you don't fit our system and we doubt you'd play).
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby joemack13 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:01 pm

I have no issue with it. If these kids are worth spending a scholarship on then they'll have several other schools that will take them on. In reality I don't see how it helps us, but I'm not morally opposed to it.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby BCSUPERFAN22 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:02 pm

There was something circulating on the twitter machine saying that Uncle Dave is going to talk things over with his family about coming back for a 5th year. I love that that idea is even being entertained by :spaz2. Why not. scholarships grow on trees
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby NotoriousOrange on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:17 pm

31southst wrote:I think they should be honored but a coach is free to be honest, like Jags was with Kenny Plue (you can come if you want but you don't fit our system and we doubt you'd play).


This
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby HJS on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:24 pm

It is not beyond the realm of possibility that the coach we hire has a few kids he has recruited to his current school want to follow him. It is also not beyond the realm of possibility that there are kids he was still recruiting for his current employer or kids he really liked but his current employer decided not to offer, who he could convince to join him at BC. Further, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that there are some kids who really liked BC but opted to verbal elsewhere because of the Spazoo situation (which would obviously be resolved once the new coach arrives).

Bottom line for me is giving the new coach whatever leeway he needs. If he wants to lay waste to the entire 2013 class, so be it. If he wants to cut half of it because he has better prospects lined up, all the better. If he wants to keep everyone as a PR move (knowing it will be difficult to find better players), fine. The important thing to me is that it be in the sole discretion of the next coach. He is the one who has to live with the ramifications.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby eagle9903 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:28 pm

HJS wrote:It is not beyond the realm of possibility that the coach we hire has a few kids he has recruited to his current school want to follow him. It is also not beyond the realm of possibility that there are kids he was still recruiting for his current employer or kids he really liked but his current employer decided not to offer, who he could convince to join him at BC. Further, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that there are some kids who really liked BC but opted to verbal elsewhere because of the Spazoo situation (which would obviously be resolved once the new coach arrives).

Bottom line for me is giving the new coach whatever leeway he needs. If he wants to lay waste to the entire 2013 class, so be it. If he wants to cut half of it because he has better prospects lined up, all the better. If he wants to keep everyone as a PR move (knowing it will be difficult to find better players), fine. The important thing to me is that it be in the sole discretion of the next coach. He is the one who has to live with the ramifications.


Fine, if our new coach has that many kids lined up great. I see that possibility in a few but not many of the likely candidates (Diaco, Narduzzi, maybe if the MAC guys have good relationships with some guys that weren't going to the MAC but like them). Even a coordinator from a big program is unlikely to bring more than a few recruits, I would think.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby Endless Mike on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:30 pm

Realistically I think the new coach will have to scramble just to fill the class -- admittedly I have stopped visiting the recruiting thread because it was just too depressing, so correct me if I'm wrong there. I don't really see this being an issue unless, as already noted, he is bringing recruits with him, or if he has his eyes on some JUCO transfers and he needs to make space. Probably not likely, but I would be fine with it.

There is always the possibility that some recruits are upset about Coach Fuckface's termination and they decommit. :laugh
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby PhillyandBCEagles on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:30 pm

31southst wrote:I think they should be honored but a coach is free to be honest, like Jags was with Kenny Plue (you can come if you want but you don't fit our system and we doubt you'd play).


This. The new coach should sit down with each of the borderline kids and tell them "Boston College has offered you a scholarship and I will honor it, however I'd be doing you a disservice if I wasn't honest with you and didn't tell you that I don't see much playing time for you down the line at this level/in my system. If you still want to come to BC, we have a spot for you and you'll be given every opportunity to prove me wrong. If not, we wish you the best of luck and I'll see what I can do about talking to some of my friends about you who are coaches at schools where you'll have more of an opportunity to get significant playing time than you will here." And then actually follow through with the last part--use his connections at mid-major, FCS, etc. schools to get the kids who do want to decommit hooked up with scholarships there. By being honest you maintain the relationships with those high school pipelines that you'll damage if you flat-out pull the kids offer or possibly even if you take him and then glue him to the bench for 4 years without warning.

BCSUPERFAN22 wrote:There was something circulating on the twitter machine saying that Uncle Dave is going to talk things over with his family about coming back for a 5th year. I love that that idea is even being entertained by :spaz2. Why not. scholarships grow on trees


A throwaway scholarship on a 5th year senior is different from a throwaway scholarship on an incoming freshman. The fifth-year senior is only taking up a scholarship for one year, if you don't have a deserving walk-on, transfer, or potential recruit to fill that spot then there's no missed opportunity. Plus a lot of times those 5th-year seniors will be good locker room guys even if they don't contribute on the field. Also, if he (or Marsco) is considered to be 3rd or higher on the QB depth chart they should be invited back anyway so that you don't have to burn Boyle or Lowrie's redshirt if Rettig and Bordner/Suntrup both go down next year.

Also.....I would really hope it won't be Spaz's decision anyway.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby HJS on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:37 pm

I can't believe people here are entertaining the idea that the next coach would have to keep these recruits if he doesn't want to. Should he be forced to keep Doug Martin too? I mean, it's hard to believe that the next coach is going to be able to land an OC who has already been a MAC head coach.

You hire the right guy... and then you get the eff out of the way. If he shitcans the class and pisses people off, that on him. But, if he is constrained 3 years from now in recruiting by only being able to land 19 instead of 25... that's on the pollyannas who want BC to do the right thing. Eff the right thing... I want to win!!!
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby DuchesneEast on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:38 pm

I hope the coach gets leeway for JUCOs for a few years.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby Endless Mike on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:42 pm

HJS wrote:I can't believe people here are entertaining the idea that the next coach would have to keep these recruits if he doesn't want to. Should he be forced to keep Doug Martin too? I mean, it's hard to believe that the next coach is going to be able to land an OC who has already been a MAC head coach.

You hire the right guy... and then you get the eff out of the way. If he shitcans the class and pisses people off, that on him. But, if he is constrained 3 years from now in recruiting by only being able to land 19 instead of 25... that's on the pollyannas who want BC to do the right thing. Eff the right thing... I want to win!!!


I'm just thinking of the timing and the fact that Coach Fuckface has been banking scholarships. I have no problem with him cutting offers for kids he doesn't want, but I think it's more likely he will have to act fast just to fill a class this time. Jags took over from TOB in early December and he had to take a lot of fliers, although I'd forgotten about the Plue situation. It seems like on the recruiting trail Spaz has been salting the earth even worse than TOB.

EDIT: I guess you are thinking more long-term than me, like cutting unworthy schollies and banking them for next time...I'm fine with that if the players are not up to his standards (and holy shit I hope the next guy has higher standards).
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby hinghameagle on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:52 pm

I think BC should honor the scholarships. It reflects poorly on the school to do otherwise and you end up making enemies with certain HS coaches that will come back and burn you.

Also, regarding certain coaches trying to bring thier own recruited players with them, If it ends up being Diaco, i would love to see the fallout if he tries to poach a few kids form Kelly. that would be an absolute war with those two. Unfortunately, if it is diaco, I think he pulls a TOB and tells Kelly, I wont take any of the commited kids, or any of the kids we were recruiting. Actually, that is not exactly a TOB. Tob told Welch that he would not recruit virginai for two or three years.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby 31southst on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:53 pm

HJS wrote:I can't believe people here are entertaining the idea that the next coach would have to keep these recruits if he doesn't want to. Should he be forced to keep Doug Martin too? I mean, it's hard to believe that the next coach is going to be able to land an OC who has already been a MAC head coach.

You hire the right guy... and then you get the eff out of the way. If he shitcans the class and pisses people off, that on him. But, if he is constrained 3 years from now in recruiting by only being able to land 19 instead of 25... that's on the pollyannas who want BC to do the right thing. Eff the right thing... I want to win!!!


As usual, you have a somewhat valid point but go off the deep end. Are you really equating honoring one of 85 scholarships to pulling a Gene and forcing an OC onto someone?

More to the point, honoring scholarships isn't just about doing the right thing. It's also about not burning bridges with coaches over a few marginal guys (which you acknowledge but immeditately dismiss). A lot of our commits come from pipeline areas and I don't think it's particularly smart for the first thing a new coach to do is piss off people who we might want to be in with in the future. Given the natural turnover the comes from a coaching change, there is no way honoring these scholarships will cost of the 6 scholarships you use as an example.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby eagle9903 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:59 pm

HJS wrote:I can't believe people here are entertaining the idea that the next coach would have to keep these recruits if he doesn't want to. Should he be forced to keep Doug Martin too? I mean, it's hard to believe that the next coach is going to be able to land an OC who has already been a MAC head coach.

You hire the right guy... and then you get the eff out of the way. If he shitcans the class and pisses people off, that on him. But, if he is constrained 3 years from now in recruiting by only being able to land 19 instead of 25... that's on the pollyannas who want BC to do the right thing. Eff the right thing... I want to win!!!


The comparison to requiring retention of the old coaches staff makes no sense.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby HJS on Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:50 pm

31southst wrote:
HJS wrote:I can't believe people here are entertaining the idea that the next coach would have to keep these recruits if he doesn't want to. Should he be forced to keep Doug Martin too? I mean, it's hard to believe that the next coach is going to be able to land an OC who has already been a MAC head coach.

You hire the right guy... and then you get the eff out of the way. If he shitcans the class and pisses people off, that on him. But, if he is constrained 3 years from now in recruiting by only being able to land 19 instead of 25... that's on the pollyannas who want BC to do the right thing. Eff the right thing... I want to win!!!


As usual, you have a somewhat valid point but go off the deep end. Are you really equating honoring one of 85 scholarships to pulling a Gene and forcing an OC onto someone?

More to the point, honoring scholarships isn't just about doing the right thing. It's also about not burning bridges with coaches over a few marginal guys (which you acknowledge but immeditately dismiss). A lot of our commits come from pipeline areas and I don't think it's particularly smart for the first thing a new coach to do is piss off people who we might want to be in with in the future. Given the natural turnover the comes from a coaching change, there is no way honoring these scholarships will cost of the 6 scholarships you use as an example.

GDF made both Spazoo and Jagoo honor the previous verbals. It was essentially a condition to taking the job... not unlike keeping guys like Spaz, McGovern and Siravo. I'm saying there she be no such conditions on the job. The concerns about burning bridges and reputational risk are not nuanced. If the new coach wants to pull ANY verbal, he damn well knows what the possible ramifications are. He also has a much better understanding of the likelihood/unlikelihood that he will be able to find someone better or how keeping or not keeping the verbals impacts his roster for the long term. All I'm saying is that the call should be that of the head coach... and not the AD or President.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby RegalBCeagle on Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:43 pm

I'm pretty sure a lot of programs pull scholarships on a regular basis - especially the SEC schools. Then again it's becuase they have their pick of the litter so to speak, and their success dictates that nobody can complain about them doing it. In BC's case, a simple discussion about the change in direction of the program and how it will impact their future on the team needs to be had. Ultimately, if the new coach is good, he'll have to suck it up and keep kids he wouldn't have normally offered schollies to. Bodies will be the bigger issue, and it will be his first full recruiting class that he'll truly be able to dictate who's worthy of his schollies and who isn't.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby h2o on Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:18 pm

The new guy should burn and pillage this downtrodden program as he sees fit. Including any Spazoo recruits he does not deem worthy.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby rktbrkr on Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:26 pm

If there is any contemplation of offering Uncle Dave a 5th year scholarship that kinda says Suntrup is a total bust right? UD hasn't had any medical year so how does he qualify for a 5th year? However UD is probably the second best QB on the team, I don't think Bordner can pass on the college level and if the OL can't block for RBs I don't think a wildcat type QB will cut it. This team is low as whale shit in talent, it's going to take 5 years to climb back to mediocrity
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby Fire Spaz on Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:41 pm

rktbrkr wrote:UD hasn't had any medical year so how does he qualify for a 5th year?


This sentence will prevent you from getting any reasonable responses. Good luck with the pending snark.

To kick these things off, did you graduate from Oklahoma University for your undergrad and attend Carolina for a post-grad degree that you completed in 2010?
Wikipedia wrote:Spaziani is known as a wordsmith often answering interview questions with unintelligible murmurs or seemingly invented words. He has been honored by his peers as the most underqualified coach ever assigned to a head coaching role at a Division 1 school
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby angrychicken on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:06 pm

hinghameagle wrote:I think BC should honor the scholarships. It reflects poorly on the school to do otherwise and you end up making enemies with certain HS coaches that will come back and burn you.

this is why bates better be on the phone with the reps of the coaches on his short list. Get the right guy hired as soon as possible and let him get the right kind of players for his system. It gives the kids who were offered a scholarship who don't fit his vision a chance to go elsewhere. If he was worthy of a BC scholarship, he'll surely land somewhere else. Hell, we played Maine this year (we kicked their ASS!). Fact is, kids can back out of verbals at any time before signing day and often do. With a head coaching change,all bets are off (not a Henning reference).
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby BCSUPERFAN22 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:32 pm

rktbrkr wrote:If there is any contemplation of offering Uncle Dave a 5th year scholarship that kinda says Suntrup is a total bust right? UD hasn't had any medical year so how does he qualify for a 5th year? However UD is probably the second best QB on the team, I don't think Bordner can pass on the college level and if the OL can't block for RBs I don't think a wildcat type QB will cut it. This team is low as whale shit in talent, it's going to take 5 years to climb back to mediocrity


Suntrup has gotten lost in the fold as spaz has tried to salvage the sinking ship. It is totally selfish and short sighted, but thats just Good Guy Spaz's nature.

How can you suggest hes a bust ? He threw 3 passes in the spring game and has not had an opportunity to play since. The good news is he is only a rs freshman so he still has 3 years to grow. FWIW, he was ranked in the same area as Chase (better actually in relation to the rest of the country).

If bringing back Shinskie allows a new coach to redshirt Boyle while providing some depth at the position, then I guess it is what it is for 1 year. With that being said, Spaz (with his phd in roster management) is carrying 7 QB's this year, which would suggest that depth is not a problem.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby DavidGordonsFoot on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:37 pm

BCSUPERFAN22 wrote:Suntrup has gotten lost in the fold as spaz has tried to salvage the sinking ship. It is totally selfish and short sighted, but thats just Good Guy Spaz's nature.

How can you suggest hes a bust ? He threw 3 passes in the spring game and has not had an opportunity to play since. The good news is he is only a rs freshman so he still has 3 years to grow. FWIW, he was ranked in the same area as Chase (better actually in relation to the rest of the country).


I'm with you here. The haste with which this board wrote off Suntrup based on a handful of snaps in the spring game continues to baffle me.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby mjago410 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:56 pm

Is this topic assuming that by the end of the season every recruit hasn't decommitted and signed with the likes of Hartford University of Connecticut at New Haven?
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby eagle9903 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:57 am

HJS wrote:GDF made both Spazoo and Jagoo honor the previous verbals.


No he didn't.

HJS wrote:not unlike keeping guys like Spaz, McGovern and Siravo.


GDF actually did this, which is why the two are not a good comparison.

HJS wrote:The concerns about burning bridges and reputational risk are not nuanced.


I challenge you to create a non ridiculous example of how this risk reward would payoff.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby eagle9903 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:24 am

I looked at the roster with the intention of furthering my position that there is no upside to booting recruits. I was operating under the assumption that we had less players on scholarship than we actually do. I was wrong, it is hardly as clearcut as I was assuming and seems to depend a lot on upperclassman attrition.

We have 83 player currently on scholarship as far as I can tell.

There are 17 true freshman (Matthews, Jackson, Jones, Crimmins, Dudeck, Simmons, Strizak, Joy, Wolford, Craan, Taylor, Daniels, Cashman, Homer, Zoungrana, Moore and Giacone) (9 have burned redshirts by my count: Jackson, Jones, Crimmins, Dudeck, Simmons,Joy, Daniels, Moore and Giacone)

There are 13 RS Freshman (Suntrup, Howell, Richardson, Bowen, Lifka, Borcich, Nelson, Meredith, Gaughan, Lembke, Miller, Porter and Wujiack)

There are 25 Sophomores (ALJ, Jones, Evans, Bordner, Dom Williams, Sylvia, Kimble, Asprilla, Keyes, McCafferey, Duggan, Davenport, Abdesmad, Rositano, Gallik, Harris Williams, Betancourt, Kramer, Vardaro, Darmstatter, Grant, Parsons, Appiah, Ricci and Mihalik)

There are 15 Juniors (Swigert, Rettig, Coleman, KPL, Finch, Lawerence, Sinkovec, Andre Williams, Divitto, Davis, White, Rudolph, Amidon, Freese, Naples, Edebali)

There are 12 Seniors (CLJ, Elliott, Shinskie, MM, Noel, Javorski, Clancy, Wetzel, Cleary, Pantale, Murray and Ramsey) All but Javorski are either 5th year or have played 4.

83-12 = 71

Our current recruiting class is at 16 (no Jasudowich). I imagine it will trim down further with a change or inertia, probably not by much, but lets say to 12.

Assuming no further attrition: we're over the scholarship limit 71+16=87
Assuming reasonable attrition from the frosh: we're just under: back at 83

The wildcard is upperclassmen. I look at the roster and see a kicker who may have been recruited over (Howell), a recruited running back who was bypassed by multiple defensive backs for PT including a fellow true frosh (Craan). I don't know what the implications of Spaz's doghouse will be for players like CJ Jones and Finch. I don't know if Finch is on pace to graduate early but if so, I would be unsurprised to see the best RB on our roster wearing a different uni for the second year in a row. ALJ strikes me as a transfer candidate as well mostly because he was a heralded recruit who switched his commitment as a recruit and has not had a clear path so far. I realize that logically removal of Spaz equates to removal of the problem and therefore players that have issues with Spaz should be placated by his removal, but in practice the damage may be done and they may already have an avenue to better things. I don't think Rettig would go anywhere, but what a kick in the balls that would be. Anyway, I'm sure there will be some level of attrition from the upperclassmen, let's say 5 players.

83-5 = 78.

That leaves maybe 7 schollies for the new coach in this class w/o booting players. Understanding that is imperfect though because he may not know the degree of attrition at the beginning, but it seems that coaches operate under the assumption of some attrition.

I don't know if 7 is enough for a new coach. When Jagz was hired in December of 2006 he finished his first class with 2 guys TOB had been recruiting (Spinney and Elliott) and 6 of his own flyers, Momah, Castanzo, chris Johnson, DD, Gause and Newman. Spaz' transition was different because he was already involved in recruiting and kept Jagz' recruiting coordinator, but he signed 7 recruits Keuchly, Davis, Wetzel, Finch, O'Neal, Freese and Shinskie.
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Re: Being discussed on EA

Postby HJS on Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:32 am

eagle9903 wrote:
HJS wrote:GDF made both Spazoo and Jagoo honor the previous verbals.


No he didn't.

HJS wrote:not unlike keeping guys like Spaz, McGovern and Siravo.


GDF actually did this, which is why the two are not a good comparison.

HJS wrote:The concerns about burning bridges and reputational risk are not nuanced.


I challenge you to create a non ridiculous example of how this risk reward would payoff.

Yes he did and that it why it was a good comparison. Jags' handling of Plue was directly questioned by GDF (and it ultimately turned out to be a poor decision by Jags as Plue skinnyed down and because a very good player).

Didn't someone very recently (I want to say it was a Cincy coach) tell all the recruits that they didn't have a ship and that he was going to re-recruit those that he wanted? I know Kiffin told Tajh Boyd he no longer had a ship. Didn't hurt Kiffin's going forward recruiting. Schiano burned a ton of bridges in New Jersey his first couple of years... and it never hurt him (quite the opposite). Damn... every year... the SEC tells kids the day before LOI Day that they no longer will take their signature. And HS coaches are willing to do ANYTHING to push kids to verbal there. Kids are burning schools with flip-flopping verbals more and more (we have like 3 thus far this year), every non-BC coach is doing the same. Bottom line is that HS coaches and players care about the program winning. Plain and simple. BC has had a "good guy" running its program the past 4 years... doing things the "right way"... playing kids early... graduating everyone. And... we have become an effing pariah on high school campuses because are win totals have been in a free fall.

As for your "challenge", it is better to be honest with a kid and tell him he will never play for you (while he still has time to grab other offers), than to take the ship and have a disgruntled player who is poisoning the well back at his old school telling them all these horror stories about how crappy BC's new coaching staff is. Would it take some massaging by the new coach with the kid's folks and high school coach... absolutely. But, signing the LOI isn't the end, it is the beginning of a 4-year marriage. There is no reason to go into it already waiting for it to be over. Nothing good can come from it. Again... with all due respect... the next coach will know the hazards and ramifications of pulling the ship a hell of a lot better than you, me. BB or Leahy. It should be HIS call as HE is the one whose job will be impacted.
Last edited by HJS on Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HJS
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