can we talk sox here for a second?

[ryrob]

This graph is incredible. I'm not even hating that hard tonight, I still can barely believe what happened:

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/MLB/Amer ... yoffs.html

That's pretty awesome.

Tampa Bay's for comparision:

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/MLB/Amer ... yoffs.html

Looks like they had a good crowd before getting in a 7-0 hole. I can only imagine if you stayed that it had to be the most amazing sporting event of your life.

[claver2010]

[RegalBCeagle]

Well who won the Yogurt War?

[PhillyandBCEagles]

This graph is incredible. I'm not even hating that hard tonight, I still can barely believe what happened:

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/MLB/Amer ... yoffs.html

That's pretty awesome.

So somewhere around game 145....less than 20 games to go...they had a 99.75% chance of making the playoffs. In other words if you played that scenario 400 times they'd make it 399. That's incredible.

I'm not a Sox-hater and actually root for them in the AL, but I have to say I'm looking forward to reading Tawmmy from Quincee's reaction on Kissing Suzy Kolber

[flyingelvii]

As a Red Sox fan, I can say that I am not really waiting for anything from this team. They are utterly unlikeable crybabies and excuse makers empowered by their incompetent manager. But hey, look at the bright side, after Bedard and Lester throw 140 pitches each in 3 and 1/3 innings the next two nights, I don't even need to think about them anymore.

I would take Francona to manage my baseball squadron.

You can have him. And if you get his stacked lineup and pitching staff for him to abuse, he'll win an occasional World Series.

Francona is Torre redux. Outsiders think he is awesome because he wins, but those that watch him every day know he is an idiot. A lawn gnome could have accidental success with that payroll and what the front office does with it, and the lawn gnome wouldn't abuse his bullpen, and shuffle his lineup in June to prepare for a postseason they aren't going to make.

Um, yeah you've gone full retard. Who has he abused over the years? Since 2005: Papelbon has had his arm coddled since he hurt his shoulder, Oki never pitched over 69 innings and started to suck when he turned 34 so maybe something there, MDC pitched over 70 innings once and never over 60 in any other year, Timlin pitched until he was about 60 so no abuse there, Lopez was a classic LOOGY and only pitched big innings (69) in one year. There haven't really been any other significant relievers for the Sox aside from them

Basically the only guy that supports your argument is Keith Foulke, who just about lost his arm pitching for the fucking World Series. Torre had four relievers over 65 innings in ONE YEAR! So nice try but at least make sure it's factually accurate next time you try to play contrarian dickhole.

Yeah, no. Keith Foulke and Oki and Bard send their regards. The only guy he hasn't abused is Pabelbon. Keep focusing on IP, I will focus on shitty pitching in September.

Oh, and feel free to hire Francona, he will be available soon.

Alright fucktard, how am I supposed to measure abuse by relievers, especially in comparison to Torre? Bard used to be a starter and still threw 100 MPH gas so, while I don't really like that he's above 70 innings, I have less of a problem with others. I addressed Oki above. Regardless, that's three examples. Joe Torre, who you compared him to in a direct analogy, does this routinely. Again full retard.

And again, fuck off for suggesting he ruined Foulke. Foulke doesn't extend himself the Sox don't win the ALCS, don't get to the WS and Shank is still getting royalty money off the Bambino shit. I can see you clearly just have an axe to grind for being a miserable fuckwad after the game tonight and are now making completely illogical arguments because of said fuckwadness.

And, yes, Adrian Gonzalez had a shit September where he only hit to the tune of .318/.455/.523 with 4 HR and 17 RBI so please continue to make shit up. His worst month was August where, coincidentally, the Red Sox were doing well. The only logical conclusion I can gather from this is that he doesn't try hard enough or want it enough or some other retarded bullshit premise that gets thrown around by retards like Shank and Mazz. Congratulations, you are a joke.

[claver2010]

Alright fucktard, how am I supposed to measure abuse by relievers, especially in comparison to Torre? Bard used to be a starter and still threw 100 MPH gas so, while I don't really like that he's above 70 innings, I have less of a problem with others. I addressed Oki above. Regardless, that's three examples. Joe Torre, who you compared him to in a direct analogy, does this routinely. Again full retard.

And again, fuck off for suggesting he ruined Foulke. Foulke doesn't extend himself the Sox don't win the ALCS, don't get to the WS and Shank is still getting royalty money off the Bambino shit. I can see you clearly just have an axe to grind for being a miserable fuckwad after the game tonight and are now making completely illogical arguments because of said fuckwadness.

And, yes, Adrian Gonzalez had a shit September where he only hit to the tune of .318/.455/.523 with 4 HR and 17 RBI. His worst month was August where, coincidentally, the Red Sox were doing well. The only logical conclusion I can gather from this is that he doesn't try hard enough or want it enough or some other retarded bullshit premise that gets thrown around by retards like Shank and Mazz. Congratulations, you are a joke.

Agreed with FlyingElvisFaxxot I'd take Francona in a heartbeat.

I guess Francona won't be available to manage the Metropolitans? Well that's good they just picked up the option on Collins (who isn't bad).

[bignick33]

Teixeira was the Sox' best player last night. Unfortunately, there was only so much he could do.

[eepstein0]

I was at Camden Yards last night. Worst sports experience I've ever attended.

[bignick33]

I was at Camden Yards last night. Worst sports experience I've ever attended.

Just think happy thoughts. Marshmont. Marshmont. Marshmont.

[DavidGordonsFoot]

I was at Camden Yards last night. Worst sports experience I've ever attended.

"Why are you driving to watch the Red Sox choke away a nine game lead?"

[pick6pedro]

I was at Camden Yards last night. Worst sports experience I've ever attended.

"Why are you driving to watch the Red Sox choke away a nine game lead?"

I shat my pants reading this!


And the heart thing is absolutely 100% correct. Yikes. I'm an O's fan and even I felt somewhat bad. But that was the best night of baseball watching that I've ever experienced. By a mile.

[bignick33]

"We play too many night games on getaway days and get into places at 4 in the morning," Gonzalez said. "This has been my toughest season physically because of that. We play a lot of night games on Sunday for television and that those things take a lot out of you."

I told Gonzalez that teams like the Red Sox and Yankees have long had those challenges, it's part of playing for a high-profile team.

"Why does it have to be?" he said. "They can put the Padres on ESPN, too. The schedule really hurt us. Nobody is really reporting that."

[claver2010]

"We play too many night games on getaway days and get into places at 4 in the morning," Gonzalez said. "This has been my toughest season physically because of that. We play a lot of night games on Sunday for television and that those things take a lot out of you."

I told Gonzalez that teams like the Red Sox and Yankees have long had those challenges, it's part of playing for a high-profile team.

"Why does it have to be?" he said. "They can put the Padres on ESPN, too. The schedule really hurt us. Nobody is really reporting that."

He could've taken $10 MM a year to stay in San Diego

[DavidGordonsFoot]

But that was the best night of baseball watching that I've ever experienced. By a mile.

This. The MLB network coverage was like watching the NFL red zone channel. Non-stop dramatics for two hours.

[eepstein0]

I was at Camden Yards last night. Worst sports experience I've ever attended.

"Why are you driving to watch the Red Sox choke away a nine game lead?"

I shat my pants reading this!


And the heart thing is absolutely 100% correct. Yikes. I'm an O's fan and even I felt somewhat bad. But that was the best night of baseball watching that I've ever experienced. By a mile.

Boy you guys are hilarious

[EagleNYC]

Will this result in a purge of the pinkhats? Is that like BC football going 1-11 and losing Spaz, and thus good?

Is anyone else relatively unimpressed with TB? That was easily the most deceptive sweep to end a season I've ever seen, particularly in light of the fact that they were just 6-4 in their last 10 (and even a 4-6 from the Sox would have staved them off). Price was smashed like a pinata, then they rallied against the Scranton Wilkes-Barre Yankees. Even Ron Washington won't be dumb enough to pitch to Longoria, who's got nothing else around him (Matt Joyce hit cleanup last night). Kyle Farnsworth in the post season? Texas in 4.

[twballgame9]

As a Red Sox fan, I can say that I am not really waiting for anything from this team. They are utterly unlikeable crybabies and excuse makers empowered by their incompetent manager. But hey, look at the bright side, after Bedard and Lester throw 140 pitches each in 3 and 1/3 innings the next two nights, I don't even need to think about them anymore.

I would take Francona to manage my baseball squadron.

You can have him. And if you get his stacked lineup and pitching staff for him to abuse, he'll win an occasional World Series.

Francona is Torre redux. Outsiders think he is awesome because he wins, but those that watch him every day know he is an idiot. A lawn gnome could have accidental success with that payroll and what the front office does with it, and the lawn gnome wouldn't abuse his bullpen, and shuffle his lineup in June to prepare for a postseason they aren't going to make.

Um, yeah you've gone full retard. Who has he abused over the years? Since 2005: Papelbon has had his arm coddled since he hurt his shoulder, Oki never pitched over 69 innings and started to suck when he turned 34 so maybe something there, MDC pitched over 70 innings once and never over 60 in any other year, Timlin pitched until he was about 60 so no abuse there, Lopez was a classic LOOGY and only pitched big innings (69) in one year. There haven't really been any other significant relievers for the Sox aside from them

Basically the only guy that supports your argument is Keith Foulke, who just about lost his arm pitching for the fucking World Series. Torre had four relievers over 65 innings in ONE YEAR! So nice try but at least make sure it's factually accurate next time you try to play contrarian dickhole.

Yeah, no. Keith Foulke and Oki and Bard send their regards. The only guy he hasn't abused is Pabelbon. Keep focusing on IP, I will focus on shitty pitching in September.

Oh, and feel free to hire Francona, he will be available soon.

Alright fucktard, how am I supposed to measure abuse by relievers, especially in comparison to Torre? Bard used to be a starter and still threw 100 MPH gas so, while I don't really like that he's above 70 innings, I have less of a problem with others. I addressed Oki above. Regardless, that's three examples. Joe Torre, who you compared him to in a direct analogy, does this routinely. Again full retard.

And again, fuck off for suggesting he ruined Foulke. Foulke doesn't extend himself the Sox don't win the ALCS, don't get to the WS and Shank is still getting royalty money off the Bambino shit. I can see you clearly just have an axe to grind for being a miserable fuckwad after the game tonight and are now making completely illogical arguments because of said fuckwadness.

And, yes, Adrian Gonzalez had a shit September where he only hit to the tune of .318/.455/.523 with 4 HR and 17 RBI so please continue to make shit up. His worst month was August where, coincidentally, the Red Sox were doing well. The only logical conclusion I can gather from this is that he doesn't try hard enough or want it enough or some other retarded bullshit premise that gets thrown around by retards like Shank and Mazz. Congratulations, you are a joke.

You are right, the Red Sox lost because of some sort of statistic. It had absolutely nothing to do with human nature, or things like choking or lack of clutch ABs and pitching performance, since we all know that humans don't play baseball. It's probably Pythagorean or sample size or some such thing. I mean the Sox were so good for 5 months, it was only natural that they would balance out in the 6th month.

As for pitching, I look at pitching staffs that consistently have guys pitching shitty in September and I ask myself: "Self, why are they pitching shitty in September, I know it is not because they are chokers, because that doesn't exist. They must be overworked."

Truth is that like Torre, Francona is at best a mediocre manager working with a ton of talent and a huge payroll every year. When you watch him everyday, like I did for 8 years before this miserable team lost me in July, you realize he does very little, and what he does is not good. His two primary responsibilities after playing cribbage with Pedroia are the awful station to station baseball (on a team with Crawford and Ellsbury in the lineup, Pedroia is the only guy that steals as much or more than he should) and the bullpen. Both suck.

Oh, and unlike you, I could give a shit, and found what happened last night kind of amusing (and even moreso, the wonderful baiting opportunity that resulted). Didn't make me miserable in the least - I call it like I see it. And I haven't read the Globe or Herald's coverage of the Sox in years because Mazz and Shank fucking suck. But thanks.

[twballgame9]

"We play too many night games on getaway days and get into places at 4 in the morning," Gonzalez said. "This has been my toughest season physically because of that. We play a lot of night games on Sunday for television and that those things take a lot out of you."

I told Gonzalez that teams like the Red Sox and Yankees have long had those challenges, it's part of playing for a high-profile team.

"Why does it have to be?" he said. "They can put the Padres on ESPN, too. The schedule really hurt us. Nobody is really reporting that."

I am sure that there is a stat to explain this, actually.

[flyingelvii]

As a Red Sox fan, I can say that I am not really waiting for anything from this team. They are utterly unlikeable crybabies and excuse makers empowered by their incompetent manager. But hey, look at the bright side, after Bedard and Lester throw 140 pitches each in 3 and 1/3 innings the next two nights, I don't even need to think about them anymore.

I would take Francona to manage my baseball squadron.

You can have him. And if you get his stacked lineup and pitching staff for him to abuse, he'll win an occasional World Series.

Francona is Torre redux. Outsiders think he is awesome because he wins, but those that watch him every day know he is an idiot. A lawn gnome could have accidental success with that payroll and what the front office does with it, and the lawn gnome wouldn't abuse his bullpen, and shuffle his lineup in June to prepare for a postseason they aren't going to make.

Um, yeah you've gone full retard. Who has he abused over the years? Since 2005: Papelbon has had his arm coddled since he hurt his shoulder, Oki never pitched over 69 innings and started to suck when he turned 34 so maybe something there, MDC pitched over 70 innings once and never over 60 in any other year, Timlin pitched until he was about 60 so no abuse there, Lopez was a classic LOOGY and only pitched big innings (69) in one year. There haven't really been any other significant relievers for the Sox aside from them

Basically the only guy that supports your argument is Keith Foulke, who just about lost his arm pitching for the fucking World Series. Torre had four relievers over 65 innings in ONE YEAR! So nice try but at least make sure it's factually accurate next time you try to play contrarian dickhole.

Yeah, no. Keith Foulke and Oki and Bard send their regards. The only guy he hasn't abused is Pabelbon. Keep focusing on IP, I will focus on shitty pitching in September.

Oh, and feel free to hire Francona, he will be available soon.

Alright fucktard, how am I supposed to measure abuse by relievers, especially in comparison to Torre? Bard used to be a starter and still threw 100 MPH gas so, while I don't really like that he's above 70 innings, I have less of a problem with others. I addressed Oki above. Regardless, that's three examples. Joe Torre, who you compared him to in a direct analogy, does this routinely. Again full retard.

And again, fuck off for suggesting he ruined Foulke. Foulke doesn't extend himself the Sox don't win the ALCS, don't get to the WS and Shank is still getting royalty money off the Bambino shit. I can see you clearly just have an axe to grind for being a miserable fuckwad after the game tonight and are now making completely illogical arguments because of said fuckwadness.

And, yes, Adrian Gonzalez had a shit September where he only hit to the tune of .318/.455/.523 with 4 HR and 17 RBI so please continue to make shit up. His worst month was August where, coincidentally, the Red Sox were doing well. The only logical conclusion I can gather from this is that he doesn't try hard enough or want it enough or some other retarded bullshit premise that gets thrown around by retards like Shank and Mazz. Congratulations, you are a joke.

You are right, the Red Sox lost because of some sort of statistic. It had absolutely nothing to do with human nature, or things like choking or lack of clutch ABs and pitching performance, since we all know that humans don't play baseball. It's probably Pythagorean or sample size or some such thing. I mean the Sox were so good for 5 months, it was only natural that they would balance out in the 6th month.

As for pitching, I look at pitching staffs that consistently have guys pitching shitty in September and I ask myself: "Self, why are they pitching shitty in September, I know it is not because they are chokers, because that doesn't exist. They must be overworked."

Truth is that like Torre, Francona is at best a mediocre manager working with a ton of talent and a huge payroll every year. When you watch him everyday, like I did for 8 years before this miserable team lost me in July, you realize he does very little, and what he does is not good. His two primary responsibilities after playing cribbage with Pedroia are the awful station to station baseball (on a team with Crawford and Ellsbury in the lineup, Pedroia is the only guy that steals as much or more than he should) and the bullpen. Both suck.

Oh, and unlike you, I could give a shit, and found what happened last night kind of amusing (and even moreso, the wonderful baiting opportunity that resulted). Didn't make me miserable in the least - I call it like I see it. And I haven't read the Globe or Herald's coverage of the Sox in years because Mazz and Shank fucking suck. But thanks.

So what I gathered from your post is that you did read what I wrote and instead have just chosen to continue your incessant 'EEI-esque bitchfest and have thrown some things in there about expected wins and stuff. You claimed Gonzalez sucked in September. I showed you that he did not by putting in the three stats that you love. You claimed Tito had a Torre-esque management of the bullpen. I scrolled through B-R.com for 10 minutes and showed you that it's not even close. You deride the IP as some advanced metric or something and say I suck or something. Hope your call to D&C was a good one this morning. THEO SUX! TITO'S DA WERZT EVA! A-GON SHOUDA HIT ONE OF THE INTENTINAL WALK PITCHES OUDDA DA PAHK!!! As I've said repeatedly, you've gone full retard. Disaggregating batted balls numbers isn't entirely complex but, then again, it doesn't fit your agenda so, hey, let's keep the head in the sand.

And I guess it's Francona's fault that there were only two, maybe three, reliable arms in the bullpen this year. But last night was totally his fault. You never put your closer up there in that situation.

And I bet you still think Moneyball is still just about Sabermetrics.

Now if you actually want to address a point I made, feel free. Until then you are calling it as you see it through the eyes of a crotchety, agenda-driven person. I wasn't really torn up by the loss last night, as you intimate in you final point, I just dislike people making shitty arguments. You have done that a lot over the past couple of days with regards to the Red Sox. I'm sorry for calling you out on bullshit. But keep spewing clown. It amuses me.

[twballgame9]

Gonzalez sucked in August and was well below his performance in September, and although I watched only sporadically because I only like about 5 or 6 guys on the team, I can't remember a single big hit he had since the All Star Break. The he proceeded to act like he could give a shit last night in a post game interview where he claimed that they choked because it was God's will.

Guys like that are supposed to carry teams down the stretch. Instead, that fell to Ellsbury, who did what he could from the leadoff spot, and Scutaro, who was the only other guy that stepped up in September. I'm not shitting on Gonzalez alone, I can point to Jon "I throw the best 130 pitch 4 and 1/3 inning outings" Lester-zaka and Daniel "I wasn't overworked because the Easterbrook fan said so, so I must have just choked like a dog in September" Bard, and a number of other dogs like Lackey, Bedard, Crawford, Drew, Reddick ... the list goes on and on.

The difference is that you expect Gonzalez and Lester to be better when it counts, not worse.

Oh, and I hate sports radio.

Francona isn't to blame for last night's loss. Francona is to blame for last night's loss mattering. A fucking trained monkey coaching the triple A team in Kansas City can do better than 7-20 in September. A guy managing the second highest payroll in the league has ZERO excuse.

[twballgame9]

As far as the IP goes, if a guy throws 35 pitches in one inning, and another throws 12 pitches over 2 innings, did the guy with 2 IP get more or less work?

[bignick33]

[twballgame9]

:slapfight

Not really a good one though. Summary: I believe that bad managing and epic choking, rather than statistics, are to blame for epically bad managing and choking, so I must read O'Shaughnessy and call into EEI.

[twballgame9]

As far as the IP goes, if a guy throws 35 pitches in one inning, and another throws 12 pitches over 2 innings, did the guy with 2 IP get more or less work?

wait.. i know this.

how many warm up pitches does he throw before each inning? THIS IS IMPORTANT

Actually it is. Bard went through a stretch in May and June where he was lights out, and Francona had him up at least once in the pen just about every night.

[DavidGordonsFoot]

so I must read O'Shaughnessy

I had to read it this morning. It was vintage Shaughnessy, like stepping back in time ten years. Midway through I was praying for a "Big Lug" reference just to wrap it all up, but he left us hanging.

Did you catch him in the booth with Heidi Watney during the rain delay? Talk about Beauty and the Beast...

[twballgame9]

so I must read O'Shaughnessy

I had to read it this morning. It was vintage Shaughnessy, like stepping back in time ten years. Midway through I was praying for a "Big Lug" reference just to wrap it all up, but he left us hanging.

Did you catch him in the booth with Heidi Watney during the rain delay? Talk about Beauty and the Beast...

No, but I heard that he said the TB game was ovah at 7-0. Pretty funny stuff. I pretty much watched the Braves game, because the Phillies were actually trying to win. 14th inning, and the starters were still in the game.

[pick6pedro]

Where does this rank among the Sports Guy's list of painful sports moments? Oh wait, I don't fucking care.

[flyingelvii]

As far as the IP goes, if a guy throws 35 pitches in one inning, and another throws 12 pitches over 2 innings, did the guy with 2 IP get more or less work?

No shit. We don't have those numbers to my knowledge. So I move to the next best thing. And theoretically, if a guy is taking 20 pitches to get out of an inning he's not going to be a 7th, 8th or 9th guy. Gotta make some assumptions when working with incomplete data here big guy.

[flyingelvii]

:slapfight

Not really a good one though. Summary: I believe that bad managing and epic choking, rather than statistics, are to blame for epically bad managing and choking, so I must read O'Shaughnessy and call into EEI.

I know you are baiting here but...

You claim A-Gon underperformed when he hit .318 with a .977 Ops, 4 HR and 17 RBI in September. Projecting that out to 162 games, that's 25 HR and 106 RBI. In reality, he hit .338 with a .958 OPS, 27 HR and 117 RBI for the year. Please, please explain to me why that is well below his performance levels.

With regards to the clutch hits point, imperfect data and all, but he hit .337 with a .924 OPS, 4 HR and 83 RBI with RISP and .303 with an .861 OPS, 2 HR and 29 RBI in 66 AB with RSIP and 2-outs. He's also at his best when in a one-run game. Go figure. Trying to find inning-by-inning splits but, yeah, you're wrong.

And I've read that sentence about 10 times and I still have no idea what it means. You presented an argument based of feeling. I called it out based on what actually happened. You wrote an incoherent sentence about...something.

Edit: Hooray! Found more split numbers and they all confirm basically the same thing I was pointing out above. Sorry I couldn't watch every game. When that happens you have to rely on what you have on hand. What we have on hand is a bunch of info that says Adrian Gonzalez is a pretty consistent hitter in nearly every situation. In case you want to look, here ya go: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=gonzaad01&year=&t=b#clutc

[eagle9903]

:slapfight

Not really a good one though. Summary: I believe that bad managing and epic choking, rather than statistics, are to blame for epically bad managing and choking, so I must read O'Shaughnessy and call into EEI.

I know you are baiting here but...

You claim A-Gon underperformed when he hit .318 with a .977 Ops, 4 HR and 17 RBI in September. Projecting that out to 162 games, that's 25 HR and 106 RBI. In reality, he hit .338 with a .958 OPS, 27 HR and 117 RBI for the year. Please, please explain to me why that is well below his performance levels.

With regards to the clutch hits point, imperfect data and all, but he hit .337 with a .924 OPS, 4 HR and 83 RBI with RISP and .303 with an .861 OPS, 2 HR and 29 RBI in 66 AB with RSIP and 2-outs. He's also at his best when in a one-run game. Go figure. Trying to find inning-by-inning splits but, yeah, you're wrong.

And I've read that sentence about 10 times and I still have no idea what it means. You presented an argument based of feeling. I called it out based on what actually happened. You wrote an incoherent sentence about...something.

Edit: Hooray! Found more split numbers and they all confirm basically the same thing I was pointing out above. Sorry I couldn't watch every game. When that happens you have to rely on what you have on hand. What we have on hand is a bunch of info that says Adrian Gonzalez is a pretty consistent hitter in nearly every situation. In case you want to look, here ya go: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=gonzaad01&year=&t=b#clutc

Jeez, elvii, I'm surprised you're able to keep up these stat projections between all the japanese zimas.