Steinbrenner Dies

[pick6pedro]

Heart Attack at 80

[DuchesneEast]

There's a difference between a winner and a champion. A winner plays the game once. A champion understands the game never ends

Sounds like George.

[DuchesneEast]

Always liked him because he always wanted to win.

[BCEagle74]

A true Giant and Boss.

Last great legendary baseball owner.

Fitting he would die on All Star Day.

7 Titles. 11 Pennants.

77-78-96-98-99-00-09

76-81-01-03

[BC '00]

He seemed to be a real pain in the ass, but as a Yankees fan, I am sure damn glad he ran the team for the vast majority of my lifetime. RIP Boss.

[flyingelvii]

Stealing this from someone else but he was Charlie Finley with more money and without a donkey. Love how the Yankee dynasty was formed when he was suspended from baseball.

[BCEagle74]

Stealing this from someone else but he was Charlie Finley with more money and without a donkey. Love how the Yankee dynasty was formed when he was suspended from baseball.

Charlie Finley was a great genius with a streak of Bill Veeck.

That village idiot di tutti idiots ruined Finley in one scumbag named Bowie Kuhn.

Selig is worse and the Ranger mess is just one.

Fay Vincent was poor too.

Finley stockpiled great talent and was a genius and his best line was "big hats and no cattle".

If no free agency and Finley had a real baseball stadium and cash back then the A's would be the 77-78 Yankees and would had won 7 World Series.

Hunter, Jackson, still had gas in the tank.

[twballgame9]

Guy was a dick with a lot of money, and his own "fans" gave him a 60 second standing O when he got banished.

Jerry Jones in a league with no salary cap.

[DuchesneEast]

If he is your owner you love him.
Opposing fans hate him.

The banishment was the best thing that ever happened to the Yankees, built a dynasty and showed him teams need to be built with pieces.

[BC '00]

He interfered waaaaay too much in the decision making process, but in my opinion, you want an owner who accepts nothing less than championships, and who is willing to spend the money to make it happen. It really helped (understatement) to be in an uncapped sport.

[twballgame9]

The idea that Yankee fans loved George is pure and utter revisionist bullshit. They loved him, sort of, after the 1996-2000 run, and only because he was too old and sick at that point to be George. They hated him before that. More than everyone else hated him.

[EagleNYC]

I laugh at the notion that the championship Yankees of 1996-2000 were predicated upon big money. Though the payrolls were certainly at or near the top each year, it was the 2001- present era that saw the real disparity (and only a single championship). Those late 1990's teams were staffed with homegrown players throughout the roster, with a smattering of free agent signees and trade acquisitions. Who is the big free agent signee? Jimmy Key? Take a look at the $ spent just extending homegrown players (through arbitration and contract extensions). Hate on, but it's true.

[flyingelvii]

No one's hating on that. Just don't attribute it to Steinbrenner in any respect.

[EagleNYC]

No one's hating on that. Just don't attribute it to Steinbrenner in any respect.

I construed "dick with a lot of money" as hating on that. As far as baseball owners go, he actually didn't have that much of a personal fortune; it was his willingness to spend his own cash that turned the Yankees into the money making machine that they are now. He was willing to spend money and set the bar very high.

As far as a talent evaluator and front office man, the guy's track record is exceptionally poor, no doubt. He was away while Gene Michael built some of the team, thank God. But he did return in 1993, not 1997. For that 10 year period, he had one hell of a run.

[Dirtywater]

I wonder if Dave Winfield will be a pall bearer?

[twballgame9]

I laugh at the notion that the championship Yankees of 1996-2000 were predicated upon big money. Though the payrolls were certainly at or near the top each year, it was the 2001- present era that saw the real disparity (and only a single championship). Those late 1990's teams were staffed with homegrown players throughout the roster, with a smattering of free agent signees and trade acquisitions. Who is the big free agent signee? Jimmy Key? Take a look at the $ spent just extending homegrown players (through arbitration and contract extensions). Hate on, but it's true.

That's like saying the Red Sox of the past 5 years didn't actually spend that much money, they just brought up home grown guys like Pedroia, Youk, Lester, Papelbon and now Buchholz and Bard. It is kind of dumb. Clemens, Cone, huge cash foreign signings Matsui, Irabu and O. Hernandez, Knobloch, Justice, Canseco, Gooden, Polonia, Lilly, Wetteland, Rogers, Boggs, Raines, Strawberry, Fielder, Sierra, Wells, Whiten, Incaviglia, Chili Davis.

They had a core group of guys, but they won because they threw a lot of money around, especially at starting pitchers Cone, Wells and Clemens.

[Dirtywater]

Larry David should deliver the eulogy facing backwards with Jason Alexander translating in sign language.

[pick6pedro]

"What the hell did you trade Jay Buhner for?!? He had
30 home runs, over 100 RBIs last year, he's got a rocket for an arm, you
don't know what the hell you're doin'!!"

[branchinator]

The Yankees and Red Sox pump more money into their farm systems than anyone else. They can pay a 1st round talent who falls to the 6th round due to signability reasons the first round money that he's looking for. If that player makes it to the big leagues, should they be congratulated for building a winner through the farm? Sure, technically that's correct, but the FA market isn't the only area where the Yankees/Red Sox have a distinct advantage over everyone else.

[eepstein0]

The Yankees and Red Sox pump more money into their farm systems than anyone else. They can pay a 1st round talent who falls to the 6th round due to signability reasons the first round money that he's looking for. If that player makes it to the big leagues, should they be congratulated for building a winner through the farm? Sure, technically that's correct, but the FA market isn't the only area where the Yankees/Red Sox have a distinct advantage over everyone else.

+1. The Royals can't go handing out $5 mil bonuses, which is the reason baseball needs a rookie salary structure similar to the NBA.

*Cue '74 calling me a communist or something*

[flyingelvii]

The Yankees and Red Sox pump more money into their farm systems than anyone else. They can pay a 1st round talent who falls to the 6th round due to signability reasons the first round money that he's looking for. If that player makes it to the big leagues, should they be congratulated for building a winner through the farm? Sure, technically that's correct, but the FA market isn't the only area where the Yankees/Red Sox have a distinct advantage over everyone else.

+1. The Royals can't go handing out $5 mil bonuses, which is the reason baseball needs a rookie salary structure similar to the NBA.

*Cue '74 calling me a communist or something*

The Pirates actually spent the most on the draft last year by $2.2 million. Really it's just an allocation of resources.

Edit: Others in the top 5 are Tampa, San Francisco (kinda big market but it's split with Oakland), and Baltimore.

[EagleNYC]

I laugh at the notion that the championship Yankees of 1996-2000 were predicated upon big money. Though the payrolls were certainly at or near the top each year, it was the 2001- present era that saw the real disparity (and only a single championship). Those late 1990's teams were staffed with homegrown players throughout the roster, with a smattering of free agent signees and trade acquisitions. Who is the big free agent signee? Jimmy Key? Take a look at the $ spent just extending homegrown players (through arbitration and contract extensions). Hate on, but it's true.

That's like saying the Red Sox of the past 5 years didn't actually spend that much money, they just brought up home grown guys like Pedroia, Youk, Lester, Papelbon and now Buchholz and Bard. It is kind of dumb. Clemens, Cone, huge cash foreign signings Matsui, Irabu and O. Hernandez, Knobloch, Justice, Canseco, Gooden, Polonia, Lilly, Wetteland, Rogers, Boggs, Raines, Strawberry, Fielder, Sierra, Wells, Whiten, Incaviglia, Chili Davis.

They had a core group of guys, but they won because they threw a lot of money around, especially at starting pitchers Cone, Wells and Clemens.

It's two distinct thoughts: the first is that it is (if there is such a thing a morals in baseball) more acceptable to spend $ to keep your own players together. In line with this, I seem to recall some rather impressive arbitration awards that either were actually granted or were avoided by contract extensions to preserve good will. I really don't think anyone who plays the money card is going to fault the Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Bernie Williams signings. So yes, I agree with you that this follows with the Red Sox- in basketball, it is expressly encouraged.

As far as your free agent analysis, I'm game. Keep in mind I expressly limited my original argument to 1996 to 2000.

Clemens: (1999-2000) acquired via trade for David Wells. Wells was among the best pitchers in baseball making a hefty salary. Clemens went 14-10 in 1999 and 13-8 in 2000. He was hit or miss in the post season.
Cone: (1996-2000) Total hired gun, on team at all times . That's one.
Matsui: did not play.
Irabu: Seriously?
El Duque: (1998-2000) Free agent signing, salary was $2 million per year.
Knobloch: (1998-2000) acquired via trade, but a highly paid 2B no doubt.
Justice: (2000) acquired via trade- played 78 games with the 2000 team. This was a rental.
Canseco: (2000) acquired after trade deadline via waivers. Zero contribution.
Gooden: (1996) scrap heap signing that no one wanted.
Polonia: did not play
Lilly: was Sept. call up in 2000.
Wetteland: (1996) free agent signee. Fits the bill.
Rogers: (1996) free agent signee. Hardly big money, worst pitcher on the staff.
Boggs: (1996) free agent signee. Not that well paid
Raines: (1996-1998) free agent starter in 1996, bench thereafter. $2 million and less per year.
Strawberry: (1996-1999) total reclamation project. Salary under $1 million each year.
Fielder: (1996)- trade deadline acquisition.
Sierra: did not play
Wells: (1998)- free agent signee. Fits the bill.
Whiten- did not play
Incaviglia: did not play
Chili Davis: (1998-1999) free agent signee, played 35 games for 1998 team.

There were some free agent signings, to be sure, but these were not teams loaded with year after year of top free agents (like 2001 and beyond).

[twballgame9]

I laugh at the notion that the championship Yankees of 1996-2000 were predicated upon big money. Though the payrolls were certainly at or near the top each year, it was the 2001- present era that saw the real disparity (and only a single championship). Those late 1990's teams were staffed with homegrown players throughout the roster, with a smattering of free agent signees and trade acquisitions. Who is the big free agent signee? Jimmy Key? Take a look at the $ spent just extending homegrown players (through arbitration and contract extensions). Hate on, but it's true.

That's like saying the Red Sox of the past 5 years didn't actually spend that much money, they just brought up home grown guys like Pedroia, Youk, Lester, Papelbon and now Buchholz and Bard. It is kind of dumb. Clemens, Cone, huge cash foreign signings Matsui, Irabu and O. Hernandez, Knobloch, Justice, Canseco, Gooden, Polonia, Lilly, Wetteland, Rogers, Boggs, Raines, Strawberry, Fielder, Sierra, Wells, Whiten, Incaviglia, Chili Davis.

They had a core group of guys, but they won because they threw a lot of money around, especially at starting pitchers Cone, Wells and Clemens.

It's two distinct thoughts: the first is that it is (if there is such a thing a morals in baseball) more acceptable to spend $ to keep your own players together. In line with this, I seem to recall some rather impressive arbitration awards that either were actually granted or were avoided by contract extensions to preserve good will. I really don't think anyone who plays the money card is going to fault the Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Bernie Williams signings. So yes, I agree with you that this follows with the Red Sox- in basketball, it is expressly encouraged.

As far as your free agent analysis, I'm game. Keep in mind I expressly limited my original argument to 1996 to 2000.

Clemens: (1999-2000) acquired via trade for David Wells. Wells was among the best pitchers in baseball making a hefty salary. Clemens went 14-10 in 1999 and 13-8 in 2000. He was hit or miss in the post season.
Cone: (1996-2000) Total hired gun, on team at all times . That's one.
Matsui: did not play.
Irabu: Seriously?
El Duque: (1998-2000) Free agent signing, salary was $2 million per year.
Knobloch: (1998-2000) acquired via trade, but a highly paid 2B no doubt.
Justice: (2000) acquired via trade- played 78 games with the 2000 team. This was a rental.
Canseco: (2000) acquired after trade deadline via waivers. Zero contribution.
Gooden: (1996) scrap heap signing that no one wanted.
Polonia: did not play
Lilly: was Sept. call up in 2000.
Wetteland: (1996) free agent signee. Fits the bill.
Rogers: (1996) free agent signee. Hardly big money, worst pitcher on the staff.
Boggs: (1996) free agent signee. Not that well paid
Raines: (1996-1998) free agent starter in 1996, bench thereafter. $2 million and less per year.
Strawberry: (1996-1999) total reclamation project. Salary under $1 million each year.
Fielder: (1996)- trade deadline acquisition.
Sierra: did not play
Wells: (1998)- free agent signee. Fits the bill.
Whiten- did not play
Incaviglia: did not play
Chili Davis: (1998-1999) free agent signee, played 35 games for 1998 team.

There were some free agent signings, to be sure, but these were not teams loaded with year after year of top free agents (like 2001 and beyond).

The point is kind of scattershot here. Is the point that they didn't spend a lot of money or that they spent a lot of money, poorly, but won any way? Because irabu was well paid, during that period.

[flyingelvii]

Considering the average salaries from 1996-1998 are $1.1 million, $1.3 million, and $1.4 million, you may need to rethink your assessments with regards to overpayments and discounts.

[BigPete]

I laugh at the notion that the championship Yankees of 1996-2000 were predicated upon big money. Though the payrolls were certainly at or near the top each year, it was the 2001- present era that saw the real disparity (and only a single championship). Those late 1990's teams were staffed with homegrown players throughout the roster, with a smattering of free agent signees and trade acquisitions. Who is the big free agent signee? Jimmy Key? Take a look at the $ spent just extending homegrown players (through arbitration and contract extensions). Hate on, but it's true.

That's like saying the Red Sox of the past 5 years didn't actually spend that much money, they just brought up home grown guys like Pedroia, Youk, Lester, Papelbon and now Buchholz and Bard. It is kind of dumb. Clemens, Cone, huge cash foreign signings Matsui, Irabu and O. Hernandez, Knobloch, Justice, Canseco, Gooden, Polonia, Lilly, Wetteland, Rogers, Boggs, Raines, Strawberry, Fielder, Sierra, Wells, Whiten, Incaviglia, Chili Davis.

They had a core group of guys, but they won because they threw a lot of money around, especially at starting pitchers Cone, Wells and Clemens.

It's two distinct thoughts: the first is that it is (if there is such a thing a morals in baseball) more acceptable to spend $ to keep your own players together. In line with this, I seem to recall some rather impressive arbitration awards that either were actually granted or were avoided by contract extensions to preserve good will. I really don't think anyone who plays the money card is going to fault the Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Bernie Williams signings. So yes, I agree with you that this follows with the Red Sox- in basketball, it is expressly encouraged.

As far as your free agent analysis, I'm game. Keep in mind I expressly limited my original argument to 1996 to 2000.

Clemens: (1999-2000) acquired via trade for David Wells. Wells was among the best pitchers in baseball making a hefty salary. Clemens went 14-10 in 1999 and 13-8 in 2000. He was hit or miss in the post season.
Cone: (1996-2000) Total hired gun, on team at all times . That's one.
Matsui: did not play.
Irabu: Seriously?
El Duque: (1998-2000) Free agent signing, salary was $2 million per year.
Knobloch: (1998-2000) acquired via trade, but a highly paid 2B no doubt.
Justice: (2000) acquired via trade- played 78 games with the 2000 team. This was a rental.
Canseco: (2000) acquired after trade deadline via waivers. Zero contribution.
Gooden: (1996) scrap heap signing that no one wanted.
Polonia: did not play
Lilly: was Sept. call up in 2000.
Wetteland: (1996) free agent signee. Fits the bill.
Rogers: (1996) free agent signee. Hardly big money, worst pitcher on the staff.
Boggs: (1996) free agent signee. Not that well paid
Raines: (1996-1998) free agent starter in 1996, bench thereafter. $2 million and less per year.
Strawberry: (1996-1999) total reclamation project. Salary under $1 million each year.
Fielder: (1996)- trade deadline acquisition.
Sierra: did not play
Wells: (1998)- free agent signee. Fits the bill.
Whiten- did not play
Incaviglia: did not play
Chili Davis: (1998-1999) free agent signee, played 35 games for 1998 team.

There were some free agent signings, to be sure, but these were not teams loaded with year after year of top free agents (like 2001 and beyond).

TW got pwn3d. Show a modicum of class you jealous grasping douchetard following the death of the greatest owner of the past 50 years.

RIP George, I hope they serve calzones in heaven infused with the carcasses of Red Sox fan abortions.

[flyingelvii]

Well aside from the whole TVM thing.

[twballgame9]

I laugh at the notion that the championship Yankees of 1996-2000 were predicated upon big money. Though the payrolls were certainly at or near the top each year, it was the 2001- present era that saw the real disparity (and only a single championship). Those late 1990's teams were staffed with homegrown players throughout the roster, with a smattering of free agent signees and trade acquisitions. Who is the big free agent signee? Jimmy Key? Take a look at the $ spent just extending homegrown players (through arbitration and contract extensions). Hate on, but it's true.

That's like saying the Red Sox of the past 5 years didn't actually spend that much money, they just brought up home grown guys like Pedroia, Youk, Lester, Papelbon and now Buchholz and Bard. It is kind of dumb. Clemens, Cone, huge cash foreign signings Matsui, Irabu and O. Hernandez, Knobloch, Justice, Canseco, Gooden, Polonia, Lilly, Wetteland, Rogers, Boggs, Raines, Strawberry, Fielder, Sierra, Wells, Whiten, Incaviglia, Chili Davis.

They had a core group of guys, but they won because they threw a lot of money around, especially at starting pitchers Cone, Wells and Clemens.

It's two distinct thoughts: the first is that it is (if there is such a thing a morals in baseball) more acceptable to spend $ to keep your own players together. In line with this, I seem to recall some rather impressive arbitration awards that either were actually granted or were avoided by contract extensions to preserve good will. I really don't think anyone who plays the money card is going to fault the Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Bernie Williams signings. So yes, I agree with you that this follows with the Red Sox- in basketball, it is expressly encouraged.

As far as your free agent analysis, I'm game. Keep in mind I expressly limited my original argument to 1996 to 2000.

Clemens: (1999-2000) acquired via trade for David Wells. Wells was among the best pitchers in baseball making a hefty salary. Clemens went 14-10 in 1999 and 13-8 in 2000. He was hit or miss in the post season.
Cone: (1996-2000) Total hired gun, on team at all times . That's one.
Matsui: did not play.
Irabu: Seriously?
El Duque: (1998-2000) Free agent signing, salary was $2 million per year.
Knobloch: (1998-2000) acquired via trade, but a highly paid 2B no doubt.
Justice: (2000) acquired via trade- played 78 games with the 2000 team. This was a rental.
Canseco: (2000) acquired after trade deadline via waivers. Zero contribution.
Gooden: (1996) scrap heap signing that no one wanted.
Polonia: did not play
Lilly: was Sept. call up in 2000.
Wetteland: (1996) free agent signee. Fits the bill.
Rogers: (1996) free agent signee. Hardly big money, worst pitcher on the staff.
Boggs: (1996) free agent signee. Not that well paid
Raines: (1996-1998) free agent starter in 1996, bench thereafter. $2 million and less per year.
Strawberry: (1996-1999) total reclamation project. Salary under $1 million each year.
Fielder: (1996)- trade deadline acquisition.
Sierra: did not play
Wells: (1998)- free agent signee. Fits the bill.
Whiten- did not play
Incaviglia: did not play
Chili Davis: (1998-1999) free agent signee, played 35 games for 1998 team.

There were some free agent signings, to be sure, but these were not teams loaded with year after year of top free agents (like 2001 and beyond).

TW got pwn3d. Show a modicum of class you jealous grasping douchetard following the death of the greatest owner of the past 50 years.

RIP George, I hope they serve calzones in heaven infused with the carcasses of Red Sox fan abortions.

Owned by a guy that thinks paying El Duque and Tim Raines $2 million dollars in the 90s was a bargain.

[EagleNYC]

I laugh at the notion that the championship Yankees of 1996-2000 were predicated upon big money. Though the payrolls were certainly at or near the top each year, it was the 2001- present era that saw the real disparity (and only a single championship). Those late 1990's teams were staffed with homegrown players throughout the roster, with a smattering of free agent signees and trade acquisitions. Who is the big free agent signee? Jimmy Key? Take a look at the $ spent just extending homegrown players (through arbitration and contract extensions). Hate on, but it's true.

That's like saying the Red Sox of the past 5 years didn't actually spend that much money, they just brought up home grown guys like Pedroia, Youk, Lester, Papelbon and now Buchholz and Bard. It is kind of dumb. Clemens, Cone, huge cash foreign signings Matsui, Irabu and O. Hernandez, Knobloch, Justice, Canseco, Gooden, Polonia, Lilly, Wetteland, Rogers, Boggs, Raines, Strawberry, Fielder, Sierra, Wells, Whiten, Incaviglia, Chili Davis.

They had a core group of guys, but they won because they threw a lot of money around, especially at starting pitchers Cone, Wells and Clemens.

It's two distinct thoughts: the first is that it is (if there is such a thing a morals in baseball) more acceptable to spend $ to keep your own players together. In line with this, I seem to recall some rather impressive arbitration awards that either were actually granted or were avoided by contract extensions to preserve good will. I really don't think anyone who plays the money card is going to fault the Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Bernie Williams signings. So yes, I agree with you that this follows with the Red Sox- in basketball, it is expressly encouraged.

As far as your free agent analysis, I'm game. Keep in mind I expressly limited my original argument to 1996 to 2000.

Clemens: (1999-2000) acquired via trade for David Wells. Wells was among the best pitchers in baseball making a hefty salary. Clemens went 14-10 in 1999 and 13-8 in 2000. He was hit or miss in the post season.
Cone: (1996-2000) Total hired gun, on team at all times . That's one.
Matsui: did not play.
Irabu: Seriously?
El Duque: (1998-2000) Free agent signing, salary was $2 million per year.
Knobloch: (1998-2000) acquired via trade, but a highly paid 2B no doubt.
Justice: (2000) acquired via trade- played 78 games with the 2000 team. This was a rental.
Canseco: (2000) acquired after trade deadline via waivers. Zero contribution.
Gooden: (1996) scrap heap signing that no one wanted.
Polonia: did not play
Lilly: was Sept. call up in 2000.
Wetteland: (1996) free agent signee. Fits the bill.
Rogers: (1996) free agent signee. Hardly big money, worst pitcher on the staff.
Boggs: (1996) free agent signee. Not that well paid
Raines: (1996-1998) free agent starter in 1996, bench thereafter. $2 million and less per year.
Strawberry: (1996-1999) total reclamation project. Salary under $1 million each year.
Fielder: (1996)- trade deadline acquisition.
Sierra: did not play
Wells: (1998)- free agent signee. Fits the bill.
Whiten- did not play
Incaviglia: did not play
Chili Davis: (1998-1999) free agent signee, played 35 games for 1998 team.

There were some free agent signings, to be sure, but these were not teams loaded with year after year of top free agents (like 2001 and beyond).

TW got pwn3d. Show a modicum of class you jealous grasping douchetard following the death of the greatest owner of the past 50 years.

RIP George, I hope they serve calzones in heaven infused with the carcasses of Red Sox fan abortions.

Owned by a guy that thinks paying El Duque and Tim Raines $2 million dollars in the 90s was a bargain.

Some context: Tim Wakefield earned $3.5 million in 1998, $4 million in 1999 and $4.5 million in 2000. Pedro was pulling in over $11 million by 1999.

David Wells made 4.7 million and $4.8 million in 1998 and 1999, respectively. So yes, El Duque was a bargain.

[flyingelvii]

Ok that may be correct but are you trying to argue the merits of the Yankees FO in finding talent or the fact that the dynasty wasn't built on money? You're all over the place.

[EagleNYC]

Ok that may be correct but are you trying to argue the merits of the Yankees FO in finding talent or the fact that the dynasty wasn't built on money? You're all over the place.

I took exception to the gloss that they were based purely on outspending the field. In particular, that they threw $$$ at free agents. The facts don't bear that out.