Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

[twballgame9]

There is a pretty direct correlation between ERA and the quality of a pitcher. Sure, it doesn't tell the whole story but calling ERA a "useless" stat is pretty stupid or makes someone look like a pretentious stat nerd. ERA is the bottom line.

I agree its the bottom line when considering the pitcher in isolation. The bottom line overall is wins, however. Either way, neither wins nor ERA are useless. In fact they are very important.

The core of this argument is that the VORP nerds don't like anything that can't be measured. They hate that Derek Jeter is considered to be great because he shouldn't be credited for team success, think Rajon Rondo is more important to the success if the Celtics than Kevin Garnett because his stats are better, and cringe when you say the word clutch because they think the sample size is too small and that things will even out over time. The other side of the coin thinks that the impact of Jeter on the Yankees is undeniable yet uncaptured by the measurables, that the fact that the Celtics sucked in the 08 playoffs and for 15 games this year without Garnett and with Rondo is a fact inescapable, yet inexplicable by statistics, and would rather have a guy on the mound with a history of big game performances or a guy at the plate who has a history of clutch hits.

The difference between the two is that the former group is a cult. Nothing exists that cannot be explained by statistics. The oldtimers are idiots, because they can't see what is right before their eyes - NUMBERS! The latter group generally recognizes that there are all sorts of statistics that can measure a whole sort of things, but many are meaniningless.

The pinnacle of this was baseball tonight last night. Baseball has officially recognized "barehanded plays" and "glove flips" as statistics. In response, Kruk says "it tells you something - it tells you how many barehanded flips a guy makes." Even noted Moneyball failure JP Riccardi says "sure its a good stat, but I am not sure how relevant it is to anything."

At the end of the day, we can all agree Joe Morgan is an idiot. The statsistics cult is the flip side of the same coin. Baseball is a sport played by humans.

[BCEagle74]

I saw Nolan Ryan pitch live many, many times.

I saw him in 1968-1969-1970, at Fenway, Yankee, Shea, both Tx ballparks.

Ryan is an Texas icon bigger than Texas.

Sons, grandsons, thousands here named Ryan.

Ryan is a living god.

I was in a cycle where all I caught was Ryan games at Arlington stadium.

I stopped going since after 40 years it was just too slow watching a guy interested in strikeouts and no hitters and not learning in 30 years to change speeds and pitch to contact or better control.

One night the first 10 batters were at least 60 pitches in 100+ heat and even in the old days, fielders get bored and tired and it effected his run support.

We got into this huge debate with redneck Cowboy Nation that led to a civil jihad....and argument and my final salvo was....

You can't walk almost 5 guys a game and strikeout 10 and not wear out your own hitters with a slow game and get a high win %??

In 27 years I told them Ryan had only 32 wins more than losses or barely 1 more a year?

The room exploded with Redneck anger and I was told I was crazy...

324-292 +32.

Then the moonshine kicked in and some figured it out, but this is the south....

When you give up 2,795 walks and 3,923 hits or a convoluted ratio like that in 5,386 innings and you wonder why you lose tons of low scoring close games....... 262ND Ranked and you get why Nolan was a great strikeout King and great arm and killer competitor.....who needed Bob Gibson or Koufax to teach him how to change speeds and throw strikes.

11 baserunners + and you are going to lose.

Mariano Rivera = 1.0106 or 3rd in history and the other 2 played when Campion was riding his horse.

Ryan --- 1.2473 = 262ND

2.2 baserunners....not taking into account xbase hits off of 100 mph fastballs and same speed curves..

Not a big number? Think again.


One guy said Ryan will never won a Cy Young in 1972 when he was traded...and he never did---becasue since 1966 he hasn't learned to throw his curve 80 instead of the same speed as his fastball and hitting is timing and guessing.

That is why pitching begins and ends with winners...Gibson, Koufax, guys who were unhittable and won versus the best in the biggest games.

Mariano Rivera..still at age 40 with rest knows his one pitch and control...still unhittable sometimes,,,but in his prime...wow!

Greg Maddux had such great control that the umps agve him everything clsoe and he earned that extra 3 inches (on each side) of the plate for not making the umps swelter in the heat.

1,800 less walks in 5000 innings???

355-227 + 228 4 Cy Youngs....somewhat better teams but his fielding and pitching also helped out.


That is the difference between a 3 hour and 40 minute sweltering night 2-1 loss--and a 2 hour and 15 minute game or a Pitcher and a Strikeout King.

They love me in Texas!

Speaking ill of Ryan is utter blasphemy......or like saying the Boston Cardinal was a fagola.

[twballgame9]

If 11 baserunners over 9 innings means you are going to lose, then there are a ton of pitchers that would never win. A 1.1 WHIP is very, very good. In fact, if you are saying Ryan's WHIP was 1.2, then he had a very good WHIP as well.

Ryan threw ridiculously hard, and pitched a long time. He wasn't a great pitcher, but he was certainly a good one.

[BCEagle74]

If 11 baserunners over 9 innings means you are going to lose, then there are a ton of pitchers that would never win. A 1.1 WHIP is very, very good. In fact, if you are saying Ryan's WHIP was 1.2, then he had a very good WHIP as well.

Ryan threw ridiculously hard, and pitched a long time. He wasn't a great pitcher, but he was certainly a good one.

Ryan 1.247 =262 --- Very good, but not elite class....

Rivera 1.0106 = 3rd.

That is not a small ratio difference.

9--the ratio of +2.3 runners in HUGE...you should see the list...

Yes, Ryan to most was the greatest pitcher ever, but they are misguided...he was a good, durable pitcher, but with a fatal flaw....he just refused to change speeds on his pitches, change-up and take something off if he changed speeds for strikes.

Country hard and his thinking process too.

[branchinator]

Ryan also pitched in an era full of needle dick hitters. In today's MLB, Ryan would surely have a WHIP north of 1.30.

[eepstein0]

Ryan also pitched in an era full of needle dick hitters. In today's MLB, Ryan would surely have a WHIP north of 1.30.

I'd have to agree here, MLB hitters in the current era would tee up his 100 mph fastball. Doesn't matter how hard you throw it anyone, the hitteres can still catch up if you've got nothing else offspeed.

[pick6pedro]

Ryan also pitched in an era full of needle dick hitters. In today's MLB, Ryan would surely have a WHIP north of 1.30.

I'd have to agree here, MLB hitters in the current era would tee up his 100 mph fastball. Doesn't matter how hard you throw it anyone, the hitteres can still catch up if you've got nothing else offspeed.

If there's anything I learned from Rookie of the Year, this would most certainly be it.

[twballgame9]

Ryan also pitched in an era full of needle dick hitters. In today's MLB, Ryan would surely have a WHIP north of 1.30.

I'd have to agree here, MLB hitters in the current era would tee up his 100 mph fastball. Doesn't matter how hard you throw it anyone, the hitteres can still catch up if you've got nothing else offspeed.

Effective pitching is 1/3 changing speeds. But it is also 1/3 movement and 1/3 location. A 98-100 mph fastball with movement is borderline unhittable. Period. Granted, most guys throwing that hard lose the movement off the fastball and have trouble throwing strikes (see Burnett, AJ). But if you can throw a 100 mph strike in a good spot or up in the zone, forget it. Ryan had some movement, but poor location. He'd be effective today, but not as effective as 30 years ago.

Get a guy with a 20 mph change between pitches, pinpoint control, and nasty movement, and you have Pedro Martinez in his prime. Borderline unhittable.

[eepstein0]

Ryan also pitched in an era full of needle dick hitters. In today's MLB, Ryan would surely have a WHIP north of 1.30.

I'd have to agree here, MLB hitters in the current era would tee up his 100 mph fastball. Doesn't matter how hard you throw it anyone, the hitteres can still catch up if you've got nothing else offspeed.

Effective pitching is 1/3 changing speeds. But it is also 1/3 movement and 1/3 location. A 98-100 mph fastball with movement is borderline unhittable. Period. Granted, most guys throwing that hard lose the movement off the fastball and have trouble throwing strikes (see Burnett, AJ). But if you can throw a 100 mph strike in a good spot or up in the zone, forget it. Ryan had some movement, but poor location. He'd be effective today, but not as effective as 30 years ago.

Get a guy with a 20 mph change between pitches, pinpoint control, and nasty movement, and you have Pedro Martinez in his prime. Borderline unhittable.

Same reason I think Strausberg will be:

Lowside: AJ Burnett
Highside: Nolan Ryan

[twballgame9]

Ryan also pitched in an era full of needle dick hitters. In today's MLB, Ryan would surely have a WHIP north of 1.30.

I'd have to agree here, MLB hitters in the current era would tee up his 100 mph fastball. Doesn't matter how hard you throw it anyone, the hitteres can still catch up if you've got nothing else offspeed.

Effective pitching is 1/3 changing speeds. But it is also 1/3 movement and 1/3 location. A 98-100 mph fastball with movement is borderline unhittable. Period. Granted, most guys throwing that hard lose the movement off the fastball and have trouble throwing strikes (see Burnett, AJ). But if you can throw a 100 mph strike in a good spot or up in the zone, forget it. Ryan had some movement, but poor location. He'd be effective today, but not as effective as 30 years ago.

Get a guy with a 20 mph change between pitches, pinpoint control, and nasty movement, and you have Pedro Martinez in his prime. Borderline unhittable.

Same reason I think Strausberg will be:

Lowside: AJ Burnett
Highside: Nolan Ryan

My understanding is that he has a filthy curveball, and they will teach him a changeup, as the Sox did with Buchholtz. The straight change Buchholtz is throwing this year is Pedro-like.

Ryan pitched in an era before the straight change was made popular by John Franco and Frank Viola. He'd be a different, and better, pitcher today.

[BCEagle74]

Strausburg is a smarter pitcher than Nolan Ryan will ever be now.

He changes speed and mixes very well and knows that changing speed and location is the WAY OF THE DALAI GIBSON.

This kid is poised and polished and if not for Tier 2 arbitration, would be here now in the Majors.

I saw Nolan throw 100,000 straight fastballs to Gary Sheffield in 1989 when he was with the Brewers and had one of the quickest bats I have ever seen. One whizzed by my melon and I actually moved back and was afraid.

After 2 HR's and 10 long fouls and 18 foul balls, what does the Mr. Texas Strongman throw him...yup another fastball..

Bye Bye...

Same as Bo Jackson..I was there the night he hit one off Nolan that landed in Guatafuckingmala ---and the next times he slow curved him and Bo whiffed and Bo looked stupid.

Nolan was just a stubborn slow country boy and now runs the Rangers....until Greenburg figures out that NYC Yenta Boy Daniels has learned his job now after trading Gonzalez, Danks, and all else....and the West is so weak that UVA could win 80 games.

Highside: Dwight Gooden without the coke.
Low Side: Mark Prior without the arm injury failures.

[BCEagle74]

Oswalt has been lights out lately...

Difference maker is Houston gets 4 prospects for the re-build.

They should package Berkman to get rid of his salary too.

[BCEagle74]

Chamberlain, Gaudin, and 2 prospects and get Oswalt.

Joba is a mental midget who wants to start and belongs in Houston with the world capital of mental midgets.

Might as well?

[cvilleagle]

Chamberlain, Gaudin, and 2 prospects and get Oswalt.

Joba is a mental midget who wants to start and belongs in Houston with the world capital of mental midgets.

Might as well?

Yankees won't do that - they have this misplaced faith in future Joba, and he's younger than Oswalt, so they won't want to give him up.

[BCEagle74]

Chamberlain, Gaudin, and 2 prospects and get Oswalt.

Joba is a mental midget who wants to start and belongs in Houston with the world capital of mental midgets.

Might as well?

Yankees won't do that - they have this misplaced faith in future Joba, and he's younger than Oswalt, so they won't want to give him up.

Yanks going after Oswalt??? I would wait until Lee becomes available from the Mariners.

Oswalt is nice but expensive and only if you can give up squat since he has next year at $16M.

Houston may give him away fro squat since they owe him big $$$$$$.

I would prefer Lee and my sleeper ace Millwood...Kevin has been getting shit support and had a few bad moments?

I would go for Cliff Lee. Lefty and now hitting his prime years.

Interesting....Vasquez who has hinted at retirement???

They may need Lance Berkman more.... Johnson is done and they need a bottom of the order bat.

WHO IS YOUR DADDY?????

[BCEagle74]

Yanks going after Oswalt??? I would wait until Lee becomes available from the Mariners.

Oswalt is nice but expensive and only if you can give up squat since he has next year at $16M.

Houston may give him away fro squat since they owe him big $$$$$$.

I would prefer Lee and my sleeper ace Millwood...Kevin has been getting shit support and had a few bad moments?

I would go for Cliff Lee. Lefty and now hitting his prime years.

Interesting....Vasquez who has hinted at retirement???

They may need Lance Berkman more.... Johnson is done and they need a bottom of the order bat.

WHO IS YOUR DADDY?????

Yankees quietly making a move on Seattle and Cliff Lee.

Mariners are toast. They should had traded Lee for prospects weeks ago.

Easy calls..

This guy is DYNASTY CEMENT.** **add to 74 Lexicon Library of
Bapst-ismania

Sabathia L
Burnett R
Pettitte L
Hughes R
Lee L
Vasquez R --- Get a hitter!

[bignick33]

One reason opposing general managers believe that the Astros will have difficulty getting anything close to what they want in a Roy Oswalt trade: There will be other veteran pitchers available this season, such as Cliff Lee, Ben Sheets (who has allowed seven earned runs in his past 25 innings, since the Athletics figured out he was tipping his curveball), Jeremy Guthrie, Kevin Millwood and Jake Westbrook. In a season in which some teams are starved for runs, it figures to be a buyer's market on pitching.

[eepstein0]

One reason opposing general managers believe that the Astros will have difficulty getting anything close to what they want in a Roy Oswalt trade: There will be other veteran pitchers available this season, such as Cliff Lee, Ben Sheets (who has allowed seven earned runs in his past 25 innings, since the Athletics figured out he was tipping his curveball), Jeremy Guthrie, Kevin Millwood and Jake Westbrook. In a season in which some teams are starved for runs, it figures to be a buyer's market on pitching.

The Yankees would have to part with Hughes or Chamberlin for Lee or Oswalt, and that's not happening.

[BCEagle74]

Hughes is a keeper...he ain't going anywhere.

Joba...maybe..but the Mariners amy want prospects..

[branchinator]

Scott Boras shouldn't scare the Yankees because nobody is going to out-bid them for Cliff Lee in the offseason. Hughes is now untouchable but I'd definitely trade the overrated fat toad, Joba, for Lee.

[bignick33]

One reason opposing general managers believe that the Astros will have difficulty getting anything close to what they want in a Roy Oswalt trade: There will be other veteran pitchers available this season, such as Cliff Lee, Ben Sheets (who has allowed seven earned runs in his past 25 innings, since the Athletics figured out he was tipping his curveball), Jeremy Guthrie, Kevin Millwood and Jake Westbrook. In a season in which some teams are starved for runs, it figures to be a buyer's market on pitching.

The Yankees would have to part with Hughes or Chamberlin for Lee or Oswalt, and that's not happening.

I hope the Yanks don't deal Joba.

[cvilleagle]

One reason opposing general managers believe that the Astros will have difficulty getting anything close to what they want in a Roy Oswalt trade: There will be other veteran pitchers available this season, such as Cliff Lee, Ben Sheets (who has allowed seven earned runs in his past 25 innings, since the Athletics figured out he was tipping his curveball), Jeremy Guthrie, Kevin Millwood and Jake Westbrook. In a season in which some teams are starved for runs, it figures to be a buyer's market on pitching.

The Yankees would have to part with Hughes or Chamberlin for Lee or Oswalt, and that's not happening.

I hope the Yanks don't deal Joba.

The longer the Yanks waste their time with Joba the better.

[BCEagle74]

Joba has been coddled and his mind is gone..he is not very smart either.

He needs a off season coach and long toss and should be throwing 120 pitches each start.

All he needed was 2 pitches with that heater.

Send him to Seattle for Lee. Yesterday.

[BCEagle74]

Yanks going after Oswalt??? I would wait until Lee becomes available from the Mariners.

Oswalt is nice but expensive and only if you can give up squat since he has next year at $16M.

Houston may give him away fro squat since they owe him big $$$$$$.

I would prefer Lee and my sleeper ace Millwood...Kevin has been getting shit support and had a few bad moments?

I would go for Cliff Lee. Lefty and now hitting his prime years.

Interesting....Vasquez who has hinted at retirement???

They may need Lance Berkman more.... Johnson is done and they need a bottom of the order bat.

WHO IS YOUR DADDY?????

Yankees quietly making a move on Seattle and Cliff Lee.

Mariners are toast. They should had traded Lee for prospects weeks ago.

Easy calls..

This guy is DYNASTY CEMENT.** **add to 74 Lexicon Library of
Bapst-ismania

Sabathia L
Burnett R
Pettitte L
Hughes R
Lee L
Vasquez R --- Get a hitter!

Coming Soon...maybe Vasquez for Jayson Werth?

[BCEagle74]

BEST OF 2011:
Catchers
BEST 2011's

Jayson Werth (32) also.
******************************
Updated 7-5-10

Catchers
John Buck (30)
First basemen
Adam Dunn (31)
Third basemen
Jorge Cantu (29)
Left fielders
Carl Crawford (29)
Starting pitchers
Cliff Lee (32)
Closers

Brian Fuentes (35) - $9MM option vests with 55 games finished in 2010
Rafael Soriano (31)

[BCEagle74]

This guy is DYNASTY CEMENT.** **add to 74 Lexicon Library of
Bapst-ismania

Sabathia L
Burnett R
Pettitte L
Hughes R
Lee L

Vasquez R --- Get a hitter![/quote]

Coming Soon...maybe Vasquez for Jayson Werth?[/quote]

Pretty much done now.

Yankees get Adam Dunn... lights out.

28

[BCEagle74]

Rangers restore order to civilization.

Lee to Rangers for 4:

The M's sent Lee and reliever Mark Lowe to Texas for first baseman Justin Smoak and minor leaguers Blake Beavan, Josh Lueke and Matthew Lawson.

The Mariners will also send $2.5 million to the Rangers to subsidize the $4 million still owed to Lee. Texas has financial limitations due to bankruptcy hearings associated with the sale of the team. There has been speculation the Rangers -- despite leading the AL West -- would not be able to add weapons for the stretch run.

I guess Jesus Montero is the next Jesus?

The Yankees had offered Seattle a three-player package, centered around catcher Jesus Montero -- who is rated as one of the best prospects in baseball, despite questions about whether he can be a catcher in the big leagues -- second baseman David Adams and a young prospect.

But the deal began to unravel, a source told ESPN.com, when the Mariners became concerned about the health of Adams, who is out with a sprained ankle.

[branchinator]

Great move for the Rangers. Pretty much locks up the AL West for them and gives them a legit #1 starter for the playoffs. Since they pretty much caught lightning in a bottle with Vlad, the time was right for a "go-for-it" move. Smoak will be a good player in this league. However, if I'm Smoak, I'm pissed that I got traded to Seattle's cavernous stadium. It'll suppress his numbers and ultimately his next contract. Playing in Texas would have turned him into an annual 30+ HR guy.

[BCEagle74]

Blevan was lights out lately, but you had to go for it with

Lee, Lewis and Wilson. Harden and Feldman need rest and psychiatrists.

Rangers get Dunn ---wow...

Could challenge Yankees...

[DavidGordonsFoot]

Don't mess with Texas.