Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

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Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby BCEagle74 on Mon May 24, 2010 10:04 am

Seattle in sewer -- Lee a free agent..

Orioles finished --- Millwood is pitching solid.

Oswalt....2 years at $29M....back issues ????
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Rettigun leading our Football team to 14-0 and a Title!

The Hoops Freshman starting a new Legacy!
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby eepstein0 on Mon May 24, 2010 12:36 pm

Cliff Lee is legit.

Millwood is fucking awful, I'm not sure what the draw is with him.

I'd be concerned with dealing for Oswalt, he had been on a slow, steady decline until this year.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby pick6pedro on Mon May 24, 2010 1:20 pm

eepstein0 {l Wrote}:I'd be concerned with dealing for Oswalt, he had been on a slow, steady decline until this year.


That may be the perception - but it's just not true.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby eepstein0 on Mon May 24, 2010 2:47 pm

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?pl ... position=P

Check out all Oswalt's peripherals, they're almost all headed in the wrong direction. Forget stupid stats like ERA and Wins. K/IP were down almost every year except for this one and his FIP is pretty consistently rising, up to about 3.80. His BABIP has also stayed pretty constant showing he's not getting unlucky or lucky

...Now I feel like a stat dork.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby pick6pedro on Mon May 24, 2010 3:20 pm

eepstein0 {l Wrote}:http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=571&position=P

Check out all Oswalt's peripherals, they're almost all headed in the wrong direction. Forget stupid stats like ERA and Wins. K/IP were down almost every year except for this one and his FIP is pretty consistently rising, up to about 3.80. His BABIP has also stayed pretty constant showing he's not getting unlucky or lucky

...Now I feel like a stat dork.


I'm not looking at wins and ERA and I have no idea what FIP is (though I'm sure it's VERY important). He's had some back problems and other injuries recently and played through them for the most part. Now that he's healthy he's doing great things for a 33 year old and is a great talent for any team that is in the mix. If a club should be worried about anything, it would be age and injury.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 3:25 pm

eepstein0 {l Wrote}:http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=571&position=P

Check out all Oswalt's peripherals, they're almost all headed in the wrong direction. Forget stupid stats like ERA and Wins. K/IP were down almost every year except for this one and his FIP is pretty consistently rising, up to about 3.80. His BABIP has also stayed pretty constant showing he's not getting unlucky or lucky

...Now I feel like a stat dork.


Fucks those dumb things like winning, and giving up runs.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby eepstein0 on Mon May 24, 2010 3:30 pm

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=571&position=P

Check out all Oswalt's peripherals, they're almost all headed in the wrong direction. Forget stupid stats like ERA and Wins. K/IP were down almost every year except for this one and his FIP is pretty consistently rising, up to about 3.80. His BABIP has also stayed pretty constant showing he's not getting unlucky or lucky

...Now I feel like a stat dork.


Fucks those dumb things like winning, and giving up runs.


Proves what a retard you are. Wins depends on all kinds of things like offense, etc and ERA is dependent on defense, etc. ERA is an absolutely useless statistic, and so are wins for a starting pitcher.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 3:34 pm

eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=571&position=P

Check out all Oswalt's peripherals, they're almost all headed in the wrong direction. Forget stupid stats like ERA and Wins. K/IP were down almost every year except for this one and his FIP is pretty consistently rising, up to about 3.80. His BABIP has also stayed pretty constant showing he's not getting unlucky or lucky

...Now I feel like a stat dork.


Fucks those dumb things like winning, and giving up runs.


Proves what a retard you are. Wins depends on all kinds of things like offense, etc and ERA is dependent on defense, etc. ERA is an absolutely useless statistic, and so are wins for a starting pitcher.


Yes, wins and how many runs you give up over 9 innings are dumb stats. It's all about WHIP and BABIP. That's why you hated Dice K when he was 18-3.

The ghost of Jack Morris thinks you stat geeks should stick to Hall of Fame discussions and negotiating free agent contracts. I'll focus on whether my team is winning and my pitchers give up a lot of runs (I, know, those are irrelevant).
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 3:41 pm

To elaborate, these appear in the same article on wikipedia:
John Scott "Jack" Morris (born May 16, 1955, in St. Paul, Minnesota) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed starting pitcher. He played in 18 big league seasons between 1977 and 1994, mainly for the Detroit Tigers, and won 254 games throughout his career. Armed with a fastball, slider, devastating splitter and a fierce competitive spirit, Morris was a five-time All-Star (1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, and 1991), and played on four World Championship teams (1984 Tigers, 1991 Twins, and 1992-93 Blue Jays). He was the winningest major league pitcher in the decade of the 1980s.

Morris has been eligible for the National Baseball Hall of Fame since 2000. From 2000 to 2003, he never received greater than 30% of the vote. He received 40% of the vote for the first time in 2006. In 2010, he received 52.3% of the vote, his highest level of support so far[3].


Sad. I'll take Jack Morris, ace of 4 World Champions, any day over the innumerable guys with better WHIPs.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby eepstein0 on Mon May 24, 2010 3:44 pm

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:To elaborate, these appear in the same article on wikipedia:
John Scott "Jack" Morris (born May 16, 1955, in St. Paul, Minnesota) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed starting pitcher. He played in 18 big league seasons between 1977 and 1994, mainly for the Detroit Tigers, and won 254 games throughout his career. Armed with a fastball, slider, devastating splitter and a fierce competitive spirit, Morris was a five-time All-Star (1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, and 1991), and played on four World Championship teams (1984 Tigers, 1991 Twins, and 1992-93 Blue Jays). He was the winningest major league pitcher in the decade of the 1980s.

Morris has been eligible for the National Baseball Hall of Fame since 2000. From 2000 to 2003, he never received greater than 30% of the vote. He received 40% of the vote for the first time in 2006. In 2010, he received 52.3% of the vote, his highest level of support so far[3].


Sad. I'll take Jack Morris, ace of 4 World Champions, any day over the innumerable guys with better WHIPs.


I believe the guy you're referring to is Javier Vazquez. Great #'s and never wins. Or any pitcher for the SF Giants this season (what a horrible offense that is this season)
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 3:53 pm

Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby pick6pedro on Mon May 24, 2010 3:54 pm

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:To elaborate, these appear in the same article on wikipedia:
John Scott "Jack" Morris (born May 16, 1955, in St. Paul, Minnesota) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed starting pitcher. He played in 18 big league seasons between 1977 and 1994, mainly for the Detroit Tigers, and won 254 games throughout his career. Armed with a fastball, slider, devastating splitter and a fierce competitive spirit, Morris was a five-time All-Star (1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, and 1991), and played on four World Championship teams (1984 Tigers, 1991 Twins, and 1992-93 Blue Jays). He was the winningest major league pitcher in the decade of the 1980s.

Morris has been eligible for the National Baseball Hall of Fame since 2000. From 2000 to 2003, he never received greater than 30% of the vote. He received 40% of the vote for the first time in 2006. In 2010, he received 52.3% of the vote, his highest level of support so far[3].


Sad. I'll take Jack Morris, ace of 4 World Champions, any day over the innumerable guys with better WHIPs.


Just like in the best NBA player argument you value championships far too highly. For some reason you like to argue "guys I'd rather have" instead of look at a guy's actual value when discussing individuals. And in baseball one player matters even less than in the NBA, especially a guy who doesn't even play in every game. (cue teddy pointing to situations where one player was extremely valuable in a series)
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 3:57 pm

pick6pedro {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:To elaborate, these appear in the same article on wikipedia:
John Scott "Jack" Morris (born May 16, 1955, in St. Paul, Minnesota) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed starting pitcher. He played in 18 big league seasons between 1977 and 1994, mainly for the Detroit Tigers, and won 254 games throughout his career. Armed with a fastball, slider, devastating splitter and a fierce competitive spirit, Morris was a five-time All-Star (1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, and 1991), and played on four World Championship teams (1984 Tigers, 1991 Twins, and 1992-93 Blue Jays). He was the winningest major league pitcher in the decade of the 1980s.

Morris has been eligible for the National Baseball Hall of Fame since 2000. From 2000 to 2003, he never received greater than 30% of the vote. He received 40% of the vote for the first time in 2006. In 2010, he received 52.3% of the vote, his highest level of support so far[3].


Sad. I'll take Jack Morris, ace of 4 World Champions, any day over the innumerable guys with better WHIPs.


Just like in the best NBA player argument you value championships far too highly. For some reason you like to argue "guys I'd rather have" instead of look at a guy's actual value when discussing individuals. And in baseball one player matters even less than in the NBA, especially a guy who doesn't even play in every game. (cue teddy pointing to situations where one player was extremely valuable in a series)


The most important player in a seven game baseball series used to be the guy that took the ball 3 times and threw 23-27 of the 63 innings. There is nothing more important that the ace of a staff come playoff time. And Jack Morris was the ace of each of those four staffs.


I don't need to point to one situation. It's pretty much every frigging year. Team with the best 1-2 pitchers wins.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby pick6pedro on Mon May 24, 2010 4:02 pm

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
pick6pedro {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:To elaborate, these appear in the same article on wikipedia:
John Scott "Jack" Morris (born May 16, 1955, in St. Paul, Minnesota) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed starting pitcher. He played in 18 big league seasons between 1977 and 1994, mainly for the Detroit Tigers, and won 254 games throughout his career. Armed with a fastball, slider, devastating splitter and a fierce competitive spirit, Morris was a five-time All-Star (1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, and 1991), and played on four World Championship teams (1984 Tigers, 1991 Twins, and 1992-93 Blue Jays). He was the winningest major league pitcher in the decade of the 1980s.

Morris has been eligible for the National Baseball Hall of Fame since 2000. From 2000 to 2003, he never received greater than 30% of the vote. He received 40% of the vote for the first time in 2006. In 2010, he received 52.3% of the vote, his highest level of support so far[3].


Sad. I'll take Jack Morris, ace of 4 World Champions, any day over the innumerable guys with better WHIPs.


Just like in the best NBA player argument you value championships far too highly. For some reason you like to argue "guys I'd rather have" instead of look at a guy's actual value when discussing individuals. And in baseball one player matters even less than in the NBA, especially a guy who doesn't even play in every game. (cue teddy pointing to situations where one player was extremely valuable in a series)


The most important player in a seven game baseball series used to be the guy that took the ball 3 times and threw 23-27 of the 63 innings. There is nothing more important that the ace of a staff come playoff time. And Jack Morris was the ace of each of those four staffs.


I don't need to point to one situation. It's pretty much every frigging year. Team with the best 1-2 pitchers wins.


So there are no teams that didn't make the playoffs with a better 1-2 combo or better individual pitchers? Sit, booboo, sit. Good dog.

P.S. When Jack Morris started in the WS, the Twins were 4-3.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:07 pm

pick6pedro {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
pick6pedro {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:To elaborate, these appear in the same article on wikipedia:
John Scott "Jack" Morris (born May 16, 1955, in St. Paul, Minnesota) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed starting pitcher. He played in 18 big league seasons between 1977 and 1994, mainly for the Detroit Tigers, and won 254 games throughout his career. Armed with a fastball, slider, devastating splitter and a fierce competitive spirit, Morris was a five-time All-Star (1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, and 1991), and played on four World Championship teams (1984 Tigers, 1991 Twins, and 1992-93 Blue Jays). He was the winningest major league pitcher in the decade of the 1980s.

Morris has been eligible for the National Baseball Hall of Fame since 2000. From 2000 to 2003, he never received greater than 30% of the vote. He received 40% of the vote for the first time in 2006. In 2010, he received 52.3% of the vote, his highest level of support so far[3].


Sad. I'll take Jack Morris, ace of 4 World Champions, any day over the innumerable guys with better WHIPs.


Just like in the best NBA player argument you value championships far too highly. For some reason you like to argue "guys I'd rather have" instead of look at a guy's actual value when discussing individuals. And in baseball one player matters even less than in the NBA, especially a guy who doesn't even play in every game. (cue teddy pointing to situations where one player was extremely valuable in a series)


The most important player in a seven game baseball series used to be the guy that took the ball 3 times and threw 23-27 of the 63 innings. There is nothing more important that the ace of a staff come playoff time. And Jack Morris was the ace of each of those four staffs.


I don't need to point to one situation. It's pretty much every frigging year. Team with the best 1-2 pitchers wins.


So there are no teams that didn't make the playoffs with a better 1-2 combo or better individual pitchers? Sit, booboo, sit. Good dog.


You just pulled an epstein. And it's Ubu. Booboo is a bear.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby pick6pedro on Mon May 24, 2010 4:13 pm

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
pick6pedro {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
pick6pedro {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:To elaborate, these appear in the same article on wikipedia:
John Scott "Jack" Morris (born May 16, 1955, in St. Paul, Minnesota) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed starting pitcher. He played in 18 big league seasons between 1977 and 1994, mainly for the Detroit Tigers, and won 254 games throughout his career. Armed with a fastball, slider, devastating splitter and a fierce competitive spirit, Morris was a five-time All-Star (1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, and 1991), and played on four World Championship teams (1984 Tigers, 1991 Twins, and 1992-93 Blue Jays). He was the winningest major league pitcher in the decade of the 1980s.

Morris has been eligible for the National Baseball Hall of Fame since 2000. From 2000 to 2003, he never received greater than 30% of the vote. He received 40% of the vote for the first time in 2006. In 2010, he received 52.3% of the vote, his highest level of support so far[3].


Sad. I'll take Jack Morris, ace of 4 World Champions, any day over the innumerable guys with better WHIPs.


Just like in the best NBA player argument you value championships far too highly. For some reason you like to argue "guys I'd rather have" instead of look at a guy's actual value when discussing individuals. And in baseball one player matters even less than in the NBA, especially a guy who doesn't even play in every game. (cue teddy pointing to situations where one player was extremely valuable in a series)


The most important player in a seven game baseball series used to be the guy that took the ball 3 times and threw 23-27 of the 63 innings. There is nothing more important that the ace of a staff come playoff time. And Jack Morris was the ace of each of those four staffs.


I don't need to point to one situation. It's pretty much every frigging year. Team with the best 1-2 pitchers wins.


So there are no teams that didn't make the playoffs with a better 1-2 combo or better individual pitchers? Sit, booboo, sit. Good dog.


You just pulled an epstein.


Actually I did not, because I've been talking about pitchers overall the entire time - you try to bring championships into it as something of individual achievement that you'd prefer in a pitcher even though there are plenty of pitchers who are giving their teams better chances to win day in and day out, but weren't lucky enough to have top talent surrounding them to get them into the final two. Jack Morris' Twins were 4-3 in games he started in the WS, by the way.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby eepstein0 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:18 pm

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.


Matt Cain has a 2.88 ERA and has 2 wins
Jonathan Sanchez has a 3.00 ERA and has 2 wins

Just saying.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:18 pm

pick6pedro {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
pick6pedro {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
pick6pedro {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:To elaborate, these appear in the same article on wikipedia:
John Scott "Jack" Morris (born May 16, 1955, in St. Paul, Minnesota) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed starting pitcher. He played in 18 big league seasons between 1977 and 1994, mainly for the Detroit Tigers, and won 254 games throughout his career. Armed with a fastball, slider, devastating splitter and a fierce competitive spirit, Morris was a five-time All-Star (1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, and 1991), and played on four World Championship teams (1984 Tigers, 1991 Twins, and 1992-93 Blue Jays). He was the winningest major league pitcher in the decade of the 1980s.

Morris has been eligible for the National Baseball Hall of Fame since 2000. From 2000 to 2003, he never received greater than 30% of the vote. He received 40% of the vote for the first time in 2006. In 2010, he received 52.3% of the vote, his highest level of support so far[3].


Sad. I'll take Jack Morris, ace of 4 World Champions, any day over the innumerable guys with better WHIPs.


Just like in the best NBA player argument you value championships far too highly. For some reason you like to argue "guys I'd rather have" instead of look at a guy's actual value when discussing individuals. And in baseball one player matters even less than in the NBA, especially a guy who doesn't even play in every game. (cue teddy pointing to situations where one player was extremely valuable in a series)


The most important player in a seven game baseball series used to be the guy that took the ball 3 times and threw 23-27 of the 63 innings. There is nothing more important that the ace of a staff come playoff time. And Jack Morris was the ace of each of those four staffs.


I don't need to point to one situation. It's pretty much every frigging year. Team with the best 1-2 pitchers wins.


So there are no teams that didn't make the playoffs with a better 1-2 combo or better individual pitchers? Sit, booboo, sit. Good dog.


You just pulled an epstein.


Actually I did not, because I've been talking about pitchers overall the entire time - you try to bring championships into it as something of individual achievement that you'd prefer in a pitcher even though there are plenty of pitchers who are giving their teams better chances to win day in and day out, but weren't lucky enough to have top talent surrounding them to get them into the final two. Jack Morris' Twins were 4-3 in games he started in the WS, by the way.


I was talking about the playoffs. Said it thrice.

And you must have missed the part where Jack Morris was the winningest pitcher of the decade of the 80s.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby eepstein0 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:20 pm

D. Lowe has an ERA of 5.50 and has 6 wins (5th in the league)
Nick Blackburn has a huge ERA and has 5 wins.

Just saying.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:22 pm

eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.


Matt Cain has a 2.88 ERA and has 2 wins
Jonathan Sanchez has a 3.00 ERA and has 2 wins

Just saying.


They should do a better job of giving up runs in the right games. In other words stop losing 2-1, 4-3 and 7-6. Instead, win 1-0, 3-2 and lose one 10-6, like Jack Morris used to do.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:23 pm

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.


Matt Cain has a 2.88 ERA and has 2 wins
Jonathan Sanchez has a 3.00 ERA and has 2 wins

Just saying.


And Lincecum and Zito are better pitchers, period. They know how to win. Cain reminds me of Vasquez a little.

They should do a better job of giving up runs in the right games. In other words stop losing 2-1, 4-3 and 7-6. Instead, win 1-0, 3-2 and lose one 10-6, like Jack Morris used to do.
Last edited by twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby eepstein0 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:23 pm

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.


Matt Cain has a 2.88 ERA and has 2 wins
Jonathan Sanchez has a 3.00 ERA and has 2 wins

Just saying.


They should do a better job of giving up runs in the right games. In other words stop losing 2-1, 4-3 and 7-6. Instead, win 1-0, 3-2 and lose one 10-6, like Jack Morris used to do.


That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard...it's not the pitchers fault their offense sucks on certain days.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:27 pm

eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.


Matt Cain has a 2.88 ERA and has 2 wins
Jonathan Sanchez has a 3.00 ERA and has 2 wins

Just saying.


They should do a better job of giving up runs in the right games. In other words stop losing 2-1, 4-3 and 7-6. Instead, win 1-0, 3-2 and lose one 10-6, like Jack Morris used to do.


That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard...it's not the pitchers fault their offense sucks on certain days.


You are an idiot. The best pitchers give up 1 run when their team scores 2. 2 runs when their team scores 3. Jack Morris could win 19-20 games with an ERA over 4 because he pitched to the situation. If his team scored 10, he'd give up less than 9. If his team scored 2, he'd give up less than 1.

The idea that pitchers are pitching in a vacuum is retarded. They should pitch better when they have to. If they don't, they aren't good pitchers. That is why wins matter. It's not like Cain goes out and gives up exactly 2.88 runs every game, and wins only when his team scores 3.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby BC '00 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:31 pm

eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.


Matt Cain has a 2.88 ERA and has 2 wins
Jonathan Sanchez has a 3.00 ERA and has 2 wins

Just saying.


They should do a better job of giving up runs in the right games. In other words stop losing 2-1, 4-3 and 7-6. Instead, win 1-0, 3-2 and lose one 10-6, like Jack Morris used to do.


That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard...it's not the pitchers fault their offense sucks on certain days.

I'm staying way the fuck away from any discussion of BABIP, but pitchers should reach deeper on days when the offense isn't showing up.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby eepstein0 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:32 pm

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.


Matt Cain has a 2.88 ERA and has 2 wins
Jonathan Sanchez has a 3.00 ERA and has 2 wins

Just saying.


They should do a better job of giving up runs in the right games. In other words stop losing 2-1, 4-3 and 7-6. Instead, win 1-0, 3-2 and lose one 10-6, like Jack Morris used to do.


That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard...it's not the pitchers fault their offense sucks on certain days.


You are an idiot. The best pitchers give up 1 run when their team scores 2. 2 runs when their team scores 3. Jack Morris could win 19-20 games with an ERA over 4 because he pitched to the situation. If his team scored 10, he'd give up less than 9. If his team scored 2, he'd give up less than 1.

The idea that pitchers are pitching in a vacuum is retarded. They should pitch better when they have to. If they don't, they aren't good pitchers. That is why wins matter. It's not like Cain goes out and gives up exactly 2.88 runs every game, and wins only when his team scores 3.


They are pretty much pitching in a vacuum. Yea, if you're ahead 10-0 you're going to challenge hitters more and throw more fastballs, I understand that argument. Although true, you can't tell me guys like Cain and Vazquez (minus this season) aren't good pitchers, they just have bad luck. Guys who have awful run support aren't going to win a whole lot of games, no matter how they pitch. For instance, Oswalt has dealt with Ubaldo in his last two starts, and Ubaldo has shut out the Astros in both starts. Oswalt got both losses, but pitched well (giving up 2 ER or so) in both starts. With your ridiculous argument, it's somehow Oswalt's fault he didn't get a win. The real story is the Astros offense blows, so they didn't even give Roy a chance.

You can believe whatever you want, but the numbers and statistics back up my argument.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby eepstein0 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:33 pm

BC '00 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.


Matt Cain has a 2.88 ERA and has 2 wins
Jonathan Sanchez has a 3.00 ERA and has 2 wins

Just saying.


They should do a better job of giving up runs in the right games. In other words stop losing 2-1, 4-3 and 7-6. Instead, win 1-0, 3-2 and lose one 10-6, like Jack Morris used to do.


That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard...it's not the pitchers fault their offense sucks on certain days.

I'm staying way the fuck away from any discussion of BABIP, but pitchers should reach deeper on days when the offense isn't showing up.


That's fine, but when you average run support per game is like 2 runs, even freaking Linsecum isn't going to win more than 12 games. Reaching deeper isn't going to help your offense actually score some runs, or your fielders get to more ground balls.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby BC '00 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:36 pm

eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.


Matt Cain has a 2.88 ERA and has 2 wins
Jonathan Sanchez has a 3.00 ERA and has 2 wins

Just saying.


They should do a better job of giving up runs in the right games. In other words stop losing 2-1, 4-3 and 7-6. Instead, win 1-0, 3-2 and lose one 10-6, like Jack Morris used to do.


That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard...it's not the pitchers fault their offense sucks on certain days.


You are an idiot. The best pitchers give up 1 run when their team scores 2. 2 runs when their team scores 3. Jack Morris could win 19-20 games with an ERA over 4 because he pitched to the situation. If his team scored 10, he'd give up less than 9. If his team scored 2, he'd give up less than 1.

The idea that pitchers are pitching in a vacuum is retarded. They should pitch better when they have to. If they don't, they aren't good pitchers. That is why wins matter. It's not like Cain goes out and gives up exactly 2.88 runs every game, and wins only when his team scores 3.


They are pretty much pitching in a vacuum. Yea, if you're ahead 10-0 you're going to challenge hitters more and throw more fastballs, I understand that argument. Although true, you can't tell me guys like Cain and Vazquez (minus this season) aren't good pitchers, they just have bad luck. Guys who have awful run support aren't going to win a whole lot of games, no matter how they pitch. For instance, Oswalt has dealt with Ubaldo in his last two starts, and Ubaldo has shut out the Astros in both starts. Oswalt got both losses, but pitched well (giving up 2 ER or so) in both starts. With your ridiculous argument, it's somehow Oswalt's fault he didn't get a win. The real story is the Astros offense blows, so they didn't even give Roy a chance.

You can believe whatever you want, but the numbers and statistics back up my argument.

Or you could recognize that there isn't a single stat that really captures a pitcher's worth? Of course you should take into account that sometimes good pitchers are on shitty teams, so they'll have less wins.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby BC '00 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:38 pm

eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
BC '00 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.


Matt Cain has a 2.88 ERA and has 2 wins
Jonathan Sanchez has a 3.00 ERA and has 2 wins

Just saying.


They should do a better job of giving up runs in the right games. In other words stop losing 2-1, 4-3 and 7-6. Instead, win 1-0, 3-2 and lose one 10-6, like Jack Morris used to do.


That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard...it's not the pitchers fault their offense sucks on certain days.

I'm staying way the fuck away from any discussion of BABIP, but pitchers should reach deeper on days when the offense isn't showing up.


That's fine, but when you average run support per game is like 2 runs, even freaking Linsecum isn't going to win more than 12 games. Reaching deeper isn't going to help your offense actually score some runs, or your fielders get to more ground balls.

Which is why wins are an imperfect stat, and people have been searching for other stats. But at the end of the day, certain pitchers know how to win, and that's the bottom line every time they go out there...not minimizing baserunners, but winning the game.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:38 pm

eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:
eepstein0 {l Wrote}:
twballgame9 {l Wrote}:Tim Lincecum is 5-0 (19 win pace). Barry Zito is 6-2 (23 win pace). Zito's era is 2.80, Lincecum's is 2.35.

I am guessing it is the guys with the high ERAs that aren't getting the wins. Just saying.


Matt Cain has a 2.88 ERA and has 2 wins
Jonathan Sanchez has a 3.00 ERA and has 2 wins

Just saying.


They should do a better job of giving up runs in the right games. In other words stop losing 2-1, 4-3 and 7-6. Instead, win 1-0, 3-2 and lose one 10-6, like Jack Morris used to do.


That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard...it's not the pitchers fault their offense sucks on certain days.


You are an idiot. The best pitchers give up 1 run when their team scores 2. 2 runs when their team scores 3. Jack Morris could win 19-20 games with an ERA over 4 because he pitched to the situation. If his team scored 10, he'd give up less than 9. If his team scored 2, he'd give up less than 1.

The idea that pitchers are pitching in a vacuum is retarded. They should pitch better when they have to. If they don't, they aren't good pitchers. That is why wins matter. It's not like Cain goes out and gives up exactly 2.88 runs every game, and wins only when his team scores 3.


They are pretty much pitching in a vacuum. Yea, if you're ahead 10-0 you're going to challenge hitters more and throw more fastballs, I understand that argument. Although true, you can't tell me guys like Cain and Vazquez (minus this season) aren't good pitchers, they just have bad luck. Guys who have awful run support aren't going to win a whole lot of games, no matter how they pitch. For instance, Oswalt has dealt with Ubaldo in his last two starts, and Ubaldo has shut out the Astros in both starts. Oswalt got both losses, but pitched well (giving up 2 ER or so) in both starts. With your ridiculous argument, it's somehow Oswalt's fault he didn't get a win. The real story is the Astros offense blows, so they didn't even give Roy a chance.

You can believe whatever you want, but the numbers and statistics back up my argument.


Great example, right now Ubaldo is a better pitcher than Oswalt. When Oswalt held his team to 2 runs, he gave up 0. He's not pitching in a vacuum - his era is not 0.

A great pitcher brings it on a day that his team has bad run support. He won't always win, but he will win more than if he pitches the same way he would with a 5 run lead. The guy that pitches the same all of the time is either doing it at an amazing once-in-a-lifetime level (see Koufax, Martinez, Gibson, Maddux) and thus winning a lot even in 10 run games or he is not that great of pitcher.
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Re: Oswalt --Millwood -- Lee -- GREAT TALENT available!

Postby twballgame9 on Mon May 24, 2010 4:43 pm

eepstein0 {l Wrote}:D. Lowe has an ERA of 5.50 and has 6 wins (5th in the league)
Nick Blackburn has a huge ERA and has 5 wins.

Just saying.


DLowe - great example. Guy is a mediocre talent that wins a lot of games. He can pitch for me anytime.

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