Favorite Ballpark

[ADonovanJr]

This. McPhail is doing things the right way rather than just saying he is. And while he has given out some contracts to older guys, they tend to be one year deals instead of giving Will Clark 4 or extending Daniel Cabrera. All one needs to do is look at what he got in the Bedard and Tejada trades to see that he's the man. With Matusz, Bergensen, Hernandez, Wieters, Markakis, Jones, Berken, Reimold and with the likes of Tillman, Bell, Snyder, Patton, and Erbe on their way - they look to be in great shape for competitiveness sooner rather than later, although the middle infield's future isn't really set.

They are getting to that point where they will need to sign some veterans that are high dollar to mix in with the kids. They will also have to move some youth to fill some holes. That may start this off-season. I think this year is about getting the kids a full season and getting the prospects another year closer to the bigs.

Or, Angelos will get impatient and fire McPhail.

[pick6pedro]

This. McPhail is doing things the right way rather than just saying he is. And while he has given out some contracts to older guys, they tend to be one year deals instead of giving Will Clark 4 or extending Daniel Cabrera. All one needs to do is look at what he got in the Bedard and Tejada trades to see that he's the man. With Matusz, Bergensen, Hernandez, Wieters, Markakis, Jones, Berken, Reimold and with the likes of Tillman, Bell, Snyder, Patton, and Erbe on their way - they look to be in great shape for competitiveness sooner rather than later, although the middle infield's future isn't really set.

They are getting to that point where they will need to sign some veterans that are high dollar to mix in with the kids. They will also have to move some youth to fill some holes. That may start this off-season. I think this year is about getting the kids a full season and getting the prospects another year closer to the bigs.

Or, Angelos will get impatient and fire McPhail.

Sure, they have to bring in some vets, but they have to be smart about it. They can't afford to throw money at guys and not have it work out at all. The two things that crippled them after the success of the mid-90's were Albert Belle and getting rid of Davey Johnson. There were plenty of other terrible moves, but I blame those two for the majority of the decline. They also are going to need to have some money available to keep these young studs down the line. Their main holes are lack of power in the lineup, the bullpen, and the future of the middle infield. A bullpen is one of the cheapest things to shore up (when you're not parking a Brinks truck in front of Danys Baez's house). It's insanely difficult to compete in the AL East, but there's no reason they cannot. I'd rather see this team out there right now than one littered with Javy Lopezes and Steve Trachseles.

[talon]

I won't shed a tear for Angelos if he lost fans from NoVA/DC when the Nats started up. He never really seemed to care about those fans anyway, other than the TV market.

Someone in DC could hop on a MARC train after work, drink some beers on the train and get off the train right next to Oriole Park in plenty of time to see the first pitch. But the trains didn't run back to DC after the game.

[pick6pedro]

I won't shed a tear for Angelos if he lost fans from NoVA/DC when the Nats started up. He never really seemed to care about those fans anyway, other than the TV market.

Someone in DC could hop on a MARC train after work, drink some beers on the train and get off the train right next to Oriole Park in plenty of time to see the first pitch. But the trains didn't run back to DC after the game.

They run buses to Union Station.

[talon]

I won't shed a tear for Angelos if he lost fans from NoVA/DC when the Nats started up. He never really seemed to care about those fans anyway, other than the TV market.

Someone in DC could hop on a MARC train after work, drink some beers on the train and get off the train right next to Oriole Park in plenty of time to see the first pitch. But the trains didn't run back to DC after the game.

They run buses to Union Station.

busses are for poor people.

[pick6pedro]

I won't shed a tear for Angelos if he lost fans from NoVA/DC when the Nats started up. He never really seemed to care about those fans anyway, other than the TV market.

Someone in DC could hop on a MARC train after work, drink some beers on the train and get off the train right next to Oriole Park in plenty of time to see the first pitch. But the trains didn't run back to DC after the game.

They run buses to Union Station.

busses are for poor people.

So I suppose the MARC trains are for kings?

[talon]

I won't shed a tear for Angelos if he lost fans from NoVA/DC when the Nats started up. He never really seemed to care about those fans anyway, other than the TV market.

Someone in DC could hop on a MARC train after work, drink some beers on the train and get off the train right next to Oriole Park in plenty of time to see the first pitch. But the trains didn't run back to DC after the game.

They run buses to Union Station.

busses are for poor people.

So I suppose the MARC trains are for kings?

no, but trains > busses.

[pick6pedro]

I won't shed a tear for Angelos if he lost fans from NoVA/DC when the Nats started up. He never really seemed to care about those fans anyway, other than the TV market.

Someone in DC could hop on a MARC train after work, drink some beers on the train and get off the train right next to Oriole Park in plenty of time to see the first pitch. But the trains didn't run back to DC after the game.

They run buses to Union Station.

busses are for poor people.

So I suppose the MARC trains are for kings?

no, but trains > busses.

Yes. Point is there is a way to get back. You're not abandoned under a bridge with Bubs.

[BearTerritory]

As a transplanted Bostonian I vote for The Giants park in San Francisco-best blending of old and new worlds, great park and magnificent venue. Camden is nice only because it was the first of its kind but the newer parks have lapped it.

I have never understood the love for Fenway-horrible sight lines, no indoor plumbing, no amenities. In any normal city it would have been bulldozed without a peep but due to the incompetence of both the city of Boston and the Red Sox it eventually morphed from embarassment to national treasure.

[bignick33]

According to this promotional drawing, Nats fans do exist:



And, they apparently like to punch their women in the back of the head.

[Shredder]

Wildcard: Miller Park is very underrated. We went out in July and they have this thing called summerfest at the Harley plant. Great place for a family vacation. They also know how to eat and drink. Every local is huge and drinks beer by the bucket, washing it down with bratwursts. I ate more in a weekend than I do in a normal month.

Miller Park is a great time and if you're into tailgating, you can't top it for baseball tailgating. As much as I like the downtown ballpark, I'm a fan of having a place on the edge of the city because tailgating in the summer is great. Also very affordable in terms of tickets and parking.

Of the new parks I've been to, Detroit is my all-around favorite. Great seats, great scenery and all the amenities but not too cushy. I had a first-base mezzanine level seat for $10 because of some half-price deal probably related to the Red Wings in the Stanley Cup last summer. That's one of the few good areas of Detroit and easily accessible by car.

Camden Yards has the best ballpark feel. Unlike some places which are almost like amusement parks, Camden Yards is all about the baseball. That Inner Harbor area of Baltimore is pretty nice and has some good restaurants and other things to check out before the game. My family and I went down there for a Red Sox game two years ago and were part of a huge Red Sox migration. Red Sox fans were everywhere in the city during the day and the Fort McHenry tour people joked around about it.

Yankee Stadium III is nice but that area of the Bronx is still a hole. They could have thrown some money into making the surrounding area somewhat ok. That must be the worst area of any stadium in the league. Even Chicago near the Cell isn't that bad and has a good parking area for tailgating as well.

I actually enjoyed US Cellular in Chicago. I saw the Red Sox there in the fall. I like that unlike the other new parks that are all trying to be both retro and state of the art, the Cell is pretty modest (and looked like crap in the early 90s when it tried being Yankee Stadium) but fits well with the White Sox character. We were able to drive in easily and tailgate for a few hours before the game, then had no trouble getting out afterward. The kielbasa there is its best concession.

Jacobs Field (well whatever it's called now) is a nice place and has the best hot dogs of any park I've been to (I personally think Nathan's hot dogs suck and the NY parks are worse off for having them; though the Hebrew National dogs there are pretty good).

SkyDome/Rogers Centre is ugly but great bang for your buck. If you're a Red Sox or Yankees fan, it's a great road trip because the games are cheap and easy to get, the seats pretty good and Toronto is a great city to visit. Plus you don't have to worry about a rain-out throwing a wrench in your plans.

I'll always love Fenway because it means I'm in my favorite city seeing my favorite team but when I go to a place like Comerica and fit comfortably in my seat, have a great view and can grab a hot dog between innings, I think I could learn to like a new park for the Red Sox. It'd have to be right where Fenway is because you can't beat the excitement of the neighborhood on a game day.

[apbc12]

I actually enjoyed US Cellular in Chicago. I saw the Red Sox there in the fall. I like that unlike the other new parks that are all trying to be both retro and state of the art, the Cell is pretty modest (and looked like crap in the early 90s when it tried being Yankee Stadium) but fits well with the White Sox character. We were able to drive in easily and tailgate for a few hours before the game, then had no trouble getting out afterward. The kielbasa there is its best concession.

Forgot about the Cell. I went a few times when I was living in Chicago. It is an OK place, easy to get to on the train and good seats are abundant. My biggest problem with it is that William Ligue was only a moderately exaggerated version of many of the ChiSox devotees I encountered. Too many of them have a simmering Big East-ish, violent inferiority complex.

[apbc12]

Turner is OK, and I was at Fulton County several times- in the 80s when the Braves stunk and no one was there, and in the 90s when the Braves were good and there was no one there. No city in America is less deserving of a good baseball team than Atlanta.

My uncle used to take me to Fulton County every summer when I was a kid. I wish they had just renovated instead of building Turner, which is fine but has a bit of the amusement park feel someone else mentioned.

I have to quibble with your second sentence, though. The Braves definitely have shitty fan support, but both Miami and Tampa have had good teams recently, and were less deserving. When I went to a Marlins game a few years ago, I felt like I was in one of those movie dream sequences where a person is walking around someplace like Times Square and there isn't a soul in sight. Tampa was a bit better, but still startlingly Conte-esque.

[bignick33]

I forgot about Olympic. I attended one of the last games there when me and a couple buddies from high school made the 5 hour drive during the summer between Freshman and Sophomore years. It seemed that most of the other people at the game were Red Sox or Yankees fans between the ages of 18-21 who likewise had made the trek north for and .

[Eagledom]

Wrigley>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fenway

Fenway is cool, but the atmosphere at wrigley is second to none. Outside of the stadium itself wrigley has the advantage over every other ballpark in the nation due to the surrounding neighborhood, the gameday atmosphere, and the local bars all around. Going to a game at wrigley is the closest you can come to a college football tailgate at a baseball stadium.

[twballgame9]

Wrigley>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fenway

Fenway is cool, but the atmosphere at wrigley is second to none. Outside of the stadium itself wrigley has the advantage over every other ballpark in the nation due to the surrounding neighborhood, the gameday atmosphere, and the local bars all around. Going to a game at wrigley is the closest you can come to a college football tailgate at a baseball stadium.

Wrigley: a place where a bunch of losers can celebrate a team full of losers, no matter how bad they are, without having to be bothered with silly little things like a baseball game.

The atmosphere at Wrigley is great for a party. For watching a baseball game, it might be the most annoying place on Earth.

Fenway isn't a party because people actually give a shit about the game. In the third inning some fat dude is bitching about pitch count, and the guy next to him comments that the pen is overworked. The fans actually know the players on the other team.

That's where I'd rather be.

[pick6pedro]

Wrigley>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fenway

Fenway is cool, but the atmosphere at wrigley is second to none. Outside of the stadium itself wrigley has the advantage over every other ballpark in the nation due to the surrounding neighborhood, the gameday atmosphere, and the local bars all around. Going to a game at wrigley is the closest you can come to a college football tailgate at a baseball stadium.

Wrigley: a place where a bunch of losers can celebrate a team full of losers, no matter how bad they are, without having to be bothered with silly little things like a baseball game.

The atmosphere at Wrigley is great for a party. For watching a baseball game, it might be the most annoying place on Earth.

Fenway isn't a party because people actually give a shit about the game. In the third inning some fat dude is bitching about pitch count, and the guy next to him comments that the pen is overworked. The fans actually know the players on the other team.

That's where I'd rather be.

This is a favorite of the Nation, too bad Sox fans being more knowledgeable than the average fan died with the birth of the pink hats. These days at Fenway, I am surrounded by just as many (if not more) people who miss 2/3rds of the game getting beers/using electronic devices or are more worried about what they are doing afterwards as people who know the prospects coming up through the system.

Besides that, fellow attendees is merely one part of the game experience when talking about ballparks - and certainly not the most important.

[twballgame9]

Wrigley>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fenway

Fenway is cool, but the atmosphere at wrigley is second to none. Outside of the stadium itself wrigley has the advantage over every other ballpark in the nation due to the surrounding neighborhood, the gameday atmosphere, and the local bars all around. Going to a game at wrigley is the closest you can come to a college football tailgate at a baseball stadium.

Wrigley: a place where a bunch of losers can celebrate a team full of losers, no matter how bad they are, without having to be bothered with silly little things like a baseball game.

The atmosphere at Wrigley is great for a party. For watching a baseball game, it might be the most annoying place on Earth.

Fenway isn't a party because people actually give a shit about the game. In the third inning some fat dude is bitching about pitch count, and the guy next to him comments that the pen is overworked. The fans actually know the players on the other team.

That's where I'd rather be.

This is a favorite of the Nation, too bad Sox fans being more knowledgeable than the average fan died with the birth of the pink hats. These days at Fenway, I am surrounded by just as many (if not more) people who miss 2/3rds of the game getting beers/using electronic devices or are more worried about what they are doing afterwards as people who know the prospects coming up through the system.

Besides that, fellow attendees is merely one part of the game experience when talking about ballparks - and certainly not the most important.

I don't sit in places that the pink hats can afford.

[pick6pedro]

I don't sit in places that the pink hats can afford.

News flash: some of the worst pink hat offenders are the never-leave-daddy's-pocket brats.

[twballgame9]

I don't sit in places that the pink hats can afford.

News flash: some of the worst pink hat offenders are the never-leave-daddy's-pocket brats.

Unless they own businesses and can afford tax write offs, they aren't sitting in the field boxes at Fenway on a regular basis.

[Shredder]

This is a favorite of the Nation, too bad Sox fans being more knowledgeable than the average fan died with the birth of the pink hats. These days at Fenway, I am surrounded by just as many (if not more) people who miss 2/3rds of the game getting beers/using electronic devices or are more worried about what they are doing afterwards as people who know the prospects coming up through the system.

Besides that, fellow attendees is merely one part of the game experience when talking about ballparks - and certainly not the most important.

I love the "pink hat" straw man argument against the Red Sox. It's true that the Red Sox attract new fans and non-fans alike because of their recent success, image and just being in Boston. These people do not dominate the games or fanbase but, because of the way they look, they are more noticeable. I've only been to Fenway a few times in the past few years but when it comes to the people who attend the games, most are legit fans who know the players on the team and follow the game. That's why the park stays full to the end and the place gets loud. I've been to other parks where the stands resemble a regular-season NBA game. You're going to get tourists and people just going to the game because it's a place to go at a lot of baseball games. NY is no exception. When I went to Yankee Stadium III last summer for a Mariners-Yankees game and sat in the upperdeck behind the plate, I was surrounded by obvious fans but also a lot of people who were getting up frequently (this really got me--I've been to lots of games all over the place and this was the first time I really thought people were getting up a lot), just sitting around until scoreboard games and the grounds crew's YMCA; then the place nearly emptied out at the end of the 8th inning on a nice July night with the Yankees down two runs. Yet there weren't any pink hats. Maybe because they're all blue in NY.

[pick6pedro]

I love the "pink hat" straw man argument against the Red Sox. It's true that the Red Sox attract new fans and non-fans alike because of their recent success, image and just being in Boston. These people do not dominate the games or fanbase but, because of the way they look, they are more noticeable. I've only been to Fenway a few times in the past few years but when it comes to the people who attend the games, most are legit fans who know the players on the team and follow the game. That's why the park stays full to the end and the place gets loud.

The "more knowledgable fan" argument is what is straw man now - having been watered down by the masses. I've been to Fenway more than a few times in the past few years. I've sat in just about every part of the park during that time (about the only place I've never been is the Monster). The crowd that shows up is extremely different from even 4-5 years ago, and I've noticed a distinct difference in the average conversation/POV around me compared to how it used to be. It's part of being successful, and it's utter garbage (but better than an empty park - which by the way tend to have a higher percentage of knowledgable fans based simply on the fact that most people in an empty stadium are the die-hards). Sure they don't "dominate" the game but the numbers they make up are severely underplayed by most Sox fans. Just yesterday the crowd dispersed before the final half inning.

[twballgame9]

I love the "pink hat" straw man argument against the Red Sox. It's true that the Red Sox attract new fans and non-fans alike because of their recent success, image and just being in Boston. These people do not dominate the games or fanbase but, because of the way they look, they are more noticeable. I've only been to Fenway a few times in the past few years but when it comes to the people who attend the games, most are legit fans who know the players on the team and follow the game. That's why the park stays full to the end and the place gets loud.

The "more knowledgable fan" argument is what is straw man now - having been watered down by the masses. I've been to Fenway more than a few times in the past few years. I've sat in just about every part of the park during that time (about the only place I've never been is the Monster). The crowd that shows up is extremely different from even 4-5 years ago, and I've noticed a distinct difference in the average conversation/POV around me compared to how it used to be. It's part of being successful, and it's utter garbage (but better than an empty park - which by the way tend to have a higher percentage of knowledgable fans based simply on the fact that most people in an empty stadium are the die-hards). Sure they don't "dominate" the game but the numbers they make up are severely underplayed by most Sox fans. Just yesterday the crowd dispersed before the final half inning.

I do not buy the argument that Boston baseball fans are knowledgeable great baseball fans. They don't like baseball-- they just like the Red Sox. If people in NE loved baseball then youth baseball would be good and high schools and colleges would play in front of people other than Moms and girlfriends. No one goes to Boston Park League or Yawkey League games, Legion games, or any other amatuer ball-- except for the Cape League, which has little to do with baseball and everything to do with being at a Cape League game because Mo Vaughn played there 20 years ago. I totally understand why most Americans loathe the Red Sox and their "nation."

Seriously, the Yawkey League? That's borderline middle school baseball.

Can't disagree with you more campion. I was at the game(s) two Saturdays ago in the rain for the completion of one game and 9 inning of another. The Sox lost both, and got blown out in the second game, and the place was packed until at least 11:30.

There are a tone of bad Red Sox fans. They are recent additions, not replacements. The old guard are still there.

Besides, most of the pink hats return to NY and NJ to pretend to root for the Yankees in the summer time.

[EagleNYC]

I love the "pink hat" straw man argument against the Red Sox. It's true that the Red Sox attract new fans and non-fans alike because of their recent success, image and just being in Boston. These people do not dominate the games or fanbase but, because of the way they look, they are more noticeable. I've only been to Fenway a few times in the past few years but when it comes to the people who attend the games, most are legit fans who know the players on the team and follow the game. That's why the park stays full to the end and the place gets loud.

The "more knowledgable fan" argument is what is straw man now - having been watered down by the masses. I've been to Fenway more than a few times in the past few years. I've sat in just about every part of the park during that time (about the only place I've never been is the Monster). The crowd that shows up is extremely different from even 4-5 years ago, and I've noticed a distinct difference in the average conversation/POV around me compared to how it used to be. It's part of being successful, and it's utter garbage (but better than an empty park - which by the way tend to have a higher percentage of knowledgable fans based simply on the fact that most people in an empty stadium are the die-hards). Sure they don't "dominate" the game but the numbers they make up are severely underplayed by most Sox fans. Just yesterday the crowd dispersed before the final half inning.

In this era of metrics, this is something that should be measured. I think it's ridiculous for any fanbase to proclaim pointless superlatives like "most knowledgable fans." It reeks of the superiority complex that garners the wrath of top targets on this board: liberals and ND fans. "We might not win every year, but our fans are so smart and knowledgeable" is poorly veiled code for "we're better than you." This reminds me of an old Globe article during the 2001 world series that argued for Sox fans to support the Yankees because (among other things) the Diamondbacks' fans didnn't understand baseball.

[b0mberMan]

I love the "pink hat" straw man argument against the Red Sox. It's true that the Red Sox attract new fans and non-fans alike because of their recent success, image and just being in Boston. These people do not dominate the games or fanbase but, because of the way they look, they are more noticeable. I've only been to Fenway a few times in the past few years but when it comes to the people who attend the games, most are legit fans who know the players on the team and follow the game. That's why the park stays full to the end and the place gets loud.

The "more knowledgable fan" argument is what is straw man now - having been watered down by the masses. I've been to Fenway more than a few times in the past few years. I've sat in just about every part of the park during that time (about the only place I've never been is the Monster). The crowd that shows up is extremely different from even 4-5 years ago, and I've noticed a distinct difference in the average conversation/POV around me compared to how it used to be. It's part of being successful, and it's utter garbage (but better than an empty park - which by the way tend to have a higher percentage of knowledgable fans based simply on the fact that most people in an empty stadium are the die-hards). Sure they don't "dominate" the game but the numbers they make up are severely underplayed by most Sox fans. Just yesterday the crowd dispersed before the final half inning.

In this era of metrics, this is something that should be measured. I think it's ridiculous for any fanbase to proclaim pointless superlatives like "most knowledgable fans." It reeks of the superiority complex that garners the wrath of top targets on this board: liberals and ND fans. "We might not win every year, but our fans are so smart and knowledgeable" is poorly veiled code for "we're better than you." This reminds me of an old Globe article during the 2001 world series that argued for Sox fans to support the Yankees because (among other things) the Diamondbacks' fans didnn't understand baseball.

I remember that article. There was a much bigger reason why the article said Sox fans should support the Yanks.

[EagleNYC]

I love the "pink hat" straw man argument against the Red Sox. It's true that the Red Sox attract new fans and non-fans alike because of their recent success, image and just being in Boston. These people do not dominate the games or fanbase but, because of the way they look, they are more noticeable. I've only been to Fenway a few times in the past few years but when it comes to the people who attend the games, most are legit fans who know the players on the team and follow the game. That's why the park stays full to the end and the place gets loud.

The "more knowledgable fan" argument is what is straw man now - having been watered down by the masses. I've been to Fenway more than a few times in the past few years. I've sat in just about every part of the park during that time (about the only place I've never been is the Monster). The crowd that shows up is extremely different from even 4-5 years ago, and I've noticed a distinct difference in the average conversation/POV around me compared to how it used to be. It's part of being successful, and it's utter garbage (but better than an empty park - which by the way tend to have a higher percentage of knowledgable fans based simply on the fact that most people in an empty stadium are the die-hards). Sure they don't "dominate" the game but the numbers they make up are severely underplayed by most Sox fans. Just yesterday the crowd dispersed before the final half inning.

In this era of metrics, this is something that should be measured. I think it's ridiculous for any fanbase to proclaim pointless superlatives like "most knowledgable fans." It reeks of the superiority complex that garners the wrath of top targets on this board: liberals and ND fans. "We might not win every year, but our fans are so smart and knowledgeable" is poorly veiled code for "we're better than you." This reminds me of an old Globe article during the 2001 world series that argued for Sox fans to support the Yankees because (among other things) the Diamondbacks' fans didnn't understand baseball.

I remember that article. There was a much bigger reason why the article said Sox fans should support the Yanks.

Indeed, but even in that hour of darkness, that was cited.

[bignick33]

I love the "pink hat" straw man argument against the Red Sox. It's true that the Red Sox attract new fans and non-fans alike because of their recent success, image and just being in Boston. These people do not dominate the games or fanbase but, because of the way they look, they are more noticeable. I've only been to Fenway a few times in the past few years but when it comes to the people who attend the games, most are legit fans who know the players on the team and follow the game. That's why the park stays full to the end and the place gets loud.

The "more knowledgable fan" argument is what is straw man now - having been watered down by the masses. I've been to Fenway more than a few times in the past few years. I've sat in just about every part of the park during that time (about the only place I've never been is the Monster). The crowd that shows up is extremely different from even 4-5 years ago, and I've noticed a distinct difference in the average conversation/POV around me compared to how it used to be. It's part of being successful, and it's utter garbage (but better than an empty park - which by the way tend to have a higher percentage of knowledgable fans based simply on the fact that most people in an empty stadium are the die-hards). Sure they don't "dominate" the game but the numbers they make up are severely underplayed by most Sox fans. Just yesterday the crowd dispersed before the final half inning.

I do not buy the argument that Boston baseball fans are knowledgeable great baseball fans. They don't like baseball-- they just like the Red Sox. If people in NE loved baseball then youth baseball would be good and high schools and colleges would play in front of people other than Moms and girlfriends. No one goes to Boston Park League or Yawkey League games, Legion games, or any other amatuer ball-- except for the Cape League, which has little to do with baseball and everything to do with being at a Cape League game because Mo Vaughn played there 20 years ago. I totally understand why most Americans loathe the Red Sox and their "nation."

Considering their proximity to a major-league franchise, there are an inordinate number of successful minor-league markets in the region (Pawtucket, Lowell, Nashua, Manchester, Portland, Norwich, etc). Only some of these are affiliated with the Red Sox. If people in the region don't like baseball, how do you account for their success?

[talon]

Considering their proximity to a major-league franchise, there are an inordinate number of successful minor-league markets in the region (Pawtucket, Lowell, Nashua, Manchester, Portland, Norwich, etc). Only some of these are affiliated with the Red Sox. If people in the region don't like baseball, how do you account for their success?

It probably has a little more to do with the players on the field than the fans in the stands.

[bignick33]

I love the "pink hat" straw man argument against the Red Sox. It's true that the Red Sox attract new fans and non-fans alike because of their recent success, image and just being in Boston. These people do not dominate the games or fanbase but, because of the way they look, they are more noticeable. I've only been to Fenway a few times in the past few years but when it comes to the people who attend the games, most are legit fans who know the players on the team and follow the game. That's why the park stays full to the end and the place gets loud.

The "more knowledgable fan" argument is what is straw man now - having been watered down by the masses. I've been to Fenway more than a few times in the past few years. I've sat in just about every part of the park during that time (about the only place I've never been is the Monster). The crowd that shows up is extremely different from even 4-5 years ago, and I've noticed a distinct difference in the average conversation/POV around me compared to how it used to be. It's part of being successful, and it's utter garbage (but better than an empty park - which by the way tend to have a higher percentage of knowledgable fans based simply on the fact that most people in an empty stadium are the die-hards). Sure they don't "dominate" the game but the numbers they make up are severely underplayed by most Sox fans. Just yesterday the crowd dispersed before the final half inning.

I do not buy the argument that Boston baseball fans are knowledgeable great baseball fans. They don't like baseball-- they just like the Red Sox. If people in NE loved baseball then youth baseball would be good and high schools and colleges would play in front of people other than Moms and girlfriends. No one goes to Boston Park League or Yawkey League games, Legion games, or any other amatuer ball-- except for the Cape League, which has little to do with baseball and everything to do with being at a Cape League game because Mo Vaughn played there 20 years ago. I totally understand why most Americans loathe the Red Sox and their "nation."

Considering their proximity to a major-league franchise, there are an inordinate number of successful minor-league markets in the region (Pawtucket, Lowell, Nashua, Manchester, Portland, Norwich, etc). Only some of these are affiliated with the Red Sox. If people in the region don't like baseball, how do you account for their success?

People go to minor league baseball in New England because they can't afford to take the kids to Fenway. The sausages racing around the warning track are more important than the game.

But, you said that the only reason that they go to Fenway is because the SAWWWXXX play there. How are minor-league games a substitute for this?

[twballgame9]

I love the "pink hat" straw man argument against the Red Sox. It's true that the Red Sox attract new fans and non-fans alike because of their recent success, image and just being in Boston. These people do not dominate the games or fanbase but, because of the way they look, they are more noticeable. I've only been to Fenway a few times in the past few years but when it comes to the people who attend the games, most are legit fans who know the players on the team and follow the game. That's why the park stays full to the end and the place gets loud.

The "more knowledgable fan" argument is what is straw man now - having been watered down by the masses. I've been to Fenway more than a few times in the past few years. I've sat in just about every part of the park during that time (about the only place I've never been is the Monster). The crowd that shows up is extremely different from even 4-5 years ago, and I've noticed a distinct difference in the average conversation/POV around me compared to how it used to be. It's part of being successful, and it's utter garbage (but better than an empty park - which by the way tend to have a higher percentage of knowledgable fans based simply on the fact that most people in an empty stadium are the die-hards). Sure they don't "dominate" the game but the numbers they make up are severely underplayed by most Sox fans. Just yesterday the crowd dispersed before the final half inning.

I do not buy the argument that Boston baseball fans are knowledgeable great baseball fans. They don't like baseball-- they just like the Red Sox. If people in NE loved baseball then youth baseball would be good and high schools and colleges would play in front of people other than Moms and girlfriends. No one goes to Boston Park League or Yawkey League games, Legion games, or any other amatuer ball-- except for the Cape League, which has little to do with baseball and everything to do with being at a Cape League game because Mo Vaughn played there 20 years ago. I totally understand why most Americans loathe the Red Sox and their "nation."

Seriously, the Yawkey League? That's borderline middle school baseball.

Can't disagree with you more campion. I was at the game(s) two Saturdays ago in the rain for the completion of one game and 9 inning of another. The Sox lost both, and got blown out in the second game, and the place was packed until at least 11:30.

There are a tone of bad Red Sox fans. They are recent additions, not replacements. The old guard are still there.

Besides, most of the pink hats return to NY and NJ to pretend to root for the Yankees in the summer time.

What about my other points? One measure of people's interest in baseball is in the quality of school and youth baseball and in NE few care. The rise of the pink hats and the success of the Wild Card World Champion Red Sox has not led to an increase in the quality of youth baseball. Contrast that with the Bruins ca. 1970, when rinks were built on every street corner.

The other thing is the stupid notion that Fenway is special. It ain't special, its just old. Sit in right field and face the bleachers sometime. They wrecked it when they took the piss troughs out. THAT was the Yawkey Tradition. If Fenway were replaced by a new ballpark attendance would be 20k for most games within 3 years.

Despite your obvious baiting, I agree with your sentiments on Fenway and the piss troughs.