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I hate to sound like a typical overreacting Sox fan, but I have to wonder if Valentine will still be the manager of this team come the fall.

Endless Mike {l Wrote}:I hate to sound like a typical overreacting Sox fan, but I have to wonder if Valentine will still be the manager of this team come the fall.

or come summer

You are stuck with him for at least three years. That said, the only things he did wrong this weekend were to leave Bard in too long and to apologize for his absolutely accurate statement about that d-bag Youkilis.

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:You are stuck with him for at least three years.

Why?

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:You are stuck with him for at least three years.

Why?

Because.

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:You are stuck with him for at least three years.

Why?

Because.

I thought he only had a two-year contract.

I also thought he made half of what they were paying Francona, which would make it easier to buy him out.

DavidGordonsFoot {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:You are stuck with him for at least three years.

Why?

Because.

I thought he only had a two-year contract.

I also thought he made half of what they were paying Francona, which would make it easier to buy him out.

Yes, both are true. The mistake is the thinking that anyone in the Red Sox office that matters (read: not Ben Cherrington) wasn't cheering Bobby for crappy on Youk. They are getting exactly what they wanted. And the perceived "meltdown" of the prima donna d-bags on the team is exactly why Valentine was hired instead of the horrid choices that Ben Notincharge was throwing around.

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

DavidGordonsFoot {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:You are stuck with him for at least three years.

Why?

Because.

I thought he only had a two-year contract.

I also thought he made half of what they were paying Francona, which would make it easier to buy him out.

Yes, both are true. The mistake is the thinking that anyone in the Red Sox office that matters (read: not Ben Cherrington) wasn't cheering Bobby for crappy on Youk. They are getting exactly what they wanted. And the perceived "meltdown" of the prima donna d-bags on the team is exactly why Valentine was hired instead of the horrid choices that Ben Notincharge was throwing around.

From a PR perspective, Pedroia's response really mattered, and even if your theory is entirely accurate, it makes the whole situation very thorny. Pedrioa is so well-liked (much more so than Youkilis) that the fans will always side with him. Having a buffoon, or even merely the perception of a buffoon, as manager will not sit well with the fans who believe the Red Sox to have endless financial resources to replace him if needed. It could hurt the bottom line, which is way more important to them than anything else (why else would Andrew Bailey be the selected 2012 closer if not for his low salary), especially now.

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

DavidGordonsFoot {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:You are stuck with him for at least three years.

Why?

Because.

I thought he only had a two-year contract.

I also thought he made half of what they were paying Francona, which would make it easier to buy him out.

Yes, both are true. The mistake is the thinking that anyone in the Red Sox office that matters (read: not Ben Cherrington) wasn't cheering Bobby for crappy on Youk. They are getting exactly what they wanted. And the perceived "meltdown" of the prima donna d-bags on the team is exactly why Valentine was hired instead of the horrid choices that Ben Notincharge was throwing around.

From a PR perspective, Pedroia's response really mattered, and even if your theory is entirely accurate, it makes the whole situation very thorny. Pedrioa is so well-liked (much more so than Youkilis) that the fans will always side with him. Having a buffoon, or even merely the perception of a buffoon, as manager will not sit well with the fans who believe the Red Sox to have endless financial resources to replace him if needed. It could hurt the bottom line, which is way more important to them than anything else (why else would Andrew Bailey be the selected 2012 closer if not for his low salary), especially now.

The identity of the manager has very little to do with the Red Sox bottom line these days. And anyone that pays a lot for a closer with a name other than Mariano Rivera is retarded.

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

DavidGordonsFoot {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:You are stuck with him for at least three years.

Why?

Because.

I thought he only had a two-year contract.

I also thought he made half of what they were paying Francona, which would make it easier to buy him out.

Yes, both are true. The mistake is the thinking that anyone in the Red Sox office that matters (read: not Ben Cherrington) wasn't cheering Bobby for crappy on Youk. They are getting exactly what they wanted. And the perceived "meltdown" of the prima donna d-bags on the team is exactly why Valentine was hired instead of the horrid choices that Ben Notincharge was throwing around.

From a PR perspective, Pedroia's response really mattered, and even if your theory is entirely accurate, it makes the whole situation very thorny. Pedrioa is so well-liked (much more so than Youkilis) that the fans will always side with him. Having a buffoon, or even merely the perception of a buffoon, as manager will not sit well with the fans who believe the Red Sox to have endless financial resources to replace him if needed. It could hurt the bottom line, which is way more important to them than anything else (why else would Andrew Bailey be the selected 2012 closer if not for his low salary), especially now.

The identity of the manager has very little to do with the Red Sox bottom line these days. And anyone that pays a lot for a closer with a name other than Mariano Rivera is retarded.

You're naive if you don't think that the Red Sox' supremacy over the local sports scene for the last 15 or so years is indomitable. And, you're an half-wit if you don't realize that the perception of the Bruins as cheap (from which they are now only overcoming in this Salary Cap era) cost them dearly, as an example.

I could see Larry Lucchino having an agenda to run a number of players on this team out of town, but I don't think Youkilis is one of them. Given his age and injury history, he won't have much leverage when it comes time to negotiate with him.

That said, Lucchino's smear campaign against Ellsbury is off to a fantastic start, and he hasn't even had to do anything, yet.

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

DavidGordonsFoot {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:You are stuck with him for at least three years.

Why?

Because.

I thought he only had a two-year contract.

I also thought he made half of what they were paying Francona, which would make it easier to buy him out.

Yes, both are true. The mistake is the thinking that anyone in the Red Sox office that matters (read: not Ben Cherrington) wasn't cheering Bobby for crappy on Youk. They are getting exactly what they wanted. And the perceived "meltdown" of the prima donna d-bags on the team is exactly why Valentine was hired instead of the horrid choices that Ben Notincharge was throwing around.

From an outsiders POV, I agree with Teddy. But I also think Youk is a dbag and think Bobby is a good manager.

Red Sox higher ups knew exactly what they were getting with Bobby, I think it's the reality that they've had a tough schedule but are decidedly the 3rd best team in the division.

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

DavidGordonsFoot {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:You are stuck with him for at least three years.

Why?

Because.

I thought he only had a two-year contract.

I also thought he made half of what they were paying Francona, which would make it easier to buy him out.

Yes, both are true. The mistake is the thinking that anyone in the Red Sox office that matters (read: not Ben Cherrington) wasn't cheering Bobby for crappy on Youk. They are getting exactly what they wanted. And the perceived "meltdown" of the prima donna d-bags on the team is exactly why Valentine was hired instead of the horrid choices that Ben Notincharge was throwing around.

From a PR perspective, Pedroia's response really mattered, and even if your theory is entirely accurate, it makes the whole situation very thorny. Pedrioa is so well-liked (much more so than Youkilis) that the fans will always side with him. Having a buffoon, or even merely the perception of a buffoon, as manager will not sit well with the fans who believe the Red Sox to have endless financial resources to replace him if needed. It could hurt the bottom line, which is way more important to them than anything else (why else would Andrew Bailey be the selected 2012 closer if not for his low salary), especially now.

The identity of the manager has very little to do with the Red Sox bottom line these days. And anyone that pays a lot for a closer with a name other than Mariano Rivera is retarded.

You're naive if you don't think that the Red Sox' supremacy over the local sports scene for the last 15 or so years is indomitable. And, you're an half-wit if you don't realize that the perception of the Bruins as cheap (from which they are now only overcoming in this Salary Cap era) cost them dearly, as an example.

The Red Sox hold over this area is as close to indomitable as it gets, and has been for the past 30 years, and only got stronger with 2 world series. People will put up with a lot of shit now, especially from this ownership group. They can ride that for a long time.

And the Bruins are not now, never have been, and never will be, the Red Sox. Regardless, the Red Sox are fourth with a $146 million payroll. The fact that they rightfully decided not to pay Papelbon 4 times what he was worth has no bearing on that. Red Sox fans around here are far more concerned with the fact that they spent too much money on shitty players at the end of the Theo Epstein era than they are with the impossibly false notion that this management is cheap.

claver2010 {l Wrote}:Red Sox higher ups knew exactly what they were getting with Bobby, I think it's the reality that they've had a tough schedule but are decidedly the 3rd best team in the division.

I'm actually not sure they know what they're doing at all anymore. That PR disaster in the fall and winter lies squarely on their shoulders.

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

claver2010 {l Wrote}:Red Sox higher ups knew exactly what they were getting with Bobby, I think it's the reality that they've had a tough schedule but are decidedly the 3rd best team in the division.

I'm actually not sure they know what they're doing at all anymore. That PR disaster in the fall and winter lies squarely on their shoulders.

I'm a Red Sox fan that lives 8 blocks from the park and goes to 20-30 games a year. I don't think that there was a PR disaster. They handled a bunch of shit really poorly, but it doesn't made a goddamn bit of difference these days. It will be a long time before this ownership group can do anything to stop making money on that team, and they would have to fuck up a lot worse than anything they have done so far.

For the record, all of this presumes that Valentine was a bad hire, a point which I have assumed but am far from conceding. Terry Francona was a big Teddy Bear that all the players loved and took utter advantage of like a pedophile in prison, but he was a complete baseball nitwit.

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

DavidGordonsFoot {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:You are stuck with him for at least three years.

Why?

Because.

I thought he only had a two-year contract.

I also thought he made half of what they were paying Francona, which would make it easier to buy him out.

Yes, both are true. The mistake is the thinking that anyone in the Red Sox office that matters (read: not Ben Cherrington) wasn't cheering Bobby for crappy on Youk. They are getting exactly what they wanted. And the perceived "meltdown" of the prima donna d-bags on the team is exactly why Valentine was hired instead of the horrid choices that Ben Notincharge was throwing around.

From a PR perspective, Pedroia's response really mattered, and even if your theory is entirely accurate, it makes the whole situation very thorny. Pedrioa is so well-liked (much more so than Youkilis) that the fans will always side with him. Having a buffoon, or even merely the perception of a buffoon, as manager will not sit well with the fans who believe the Red Sox to have endless financial resources to replace him if needed. It could hurt the bottom line, which is way more important to them than anything else (why else would Andrew Bailey be the selected 2012 closer if not for his low salary), especially now.

The identity of the manager has very little to do with the Red Sox bottom line these days. And anyone that pays a lot for a closer with a name other than Mariano Rivera is retarded.

You're naive if you don't think that the Red Sox' supremacy over the local sports scene for the last 15 or so years is indomitable. And, you're an half-wit if you don't realize that the perception of the Bruins as cheap (from which they are now only overcoming in this Salary Cap era) cost them dearly, as an example.

The Red Sox hold over this area is as close to indomitable as it gets, and has been for the past 30 years, and only got stronger with 2 world series. People will put up with a lot of shit now, especially from this ownership group. They can ride that for a long time.

And the Bruins are not now, never have been, and never will be, the Red Sox. Regardless, the Red Sox are fourth with a $146 million payroll. The fact that they rightfully decided not to pay Papelbon 4 times what he was worth has no bearing on that. Red Sox fans around here are far more concerned with the fact that they spent too much money on shitty players at the end of the Theo Epstein era than they are with the impossibly false notion that this management is cheap.

In the late 60s and 70s the Bruins were absolutely were the dominant sports franchise in New England, Impossible Dream be damned, but my point wasn't to compare the popularity of the two now or then. It was an example how a poor perception of an ownership group can have a catastrophic impact on popularity and on the bottom line. The pickhats and tourists will come and go, but with each PR blunder, the diehards will scrutinize their motives more closely. If the perception is that the ownership now cares more about the success of Liverpool (as another example), that's a major problem, particularly in a highly competitive market. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised by your naivete in regards to the symptoms, but the perception that they callously hired an imbecile as their manager and were too cheap to acquire any closer but the one with the most drastic history of injuries is nonetheless problematic. And, after last year, patience was already diminished.

I hear a lot of complaints about the Red Sox. "Not being one of the retarded teams that spends a ton of money on a closer because you catch them after their prime instead of before" is not one of them. Indeed, the biggest complaint has been "Daniel Bard should be the closer not in the rotation," which ended the other day, when he showed why he is in the rotation.

The Red Sox bullpen stinks. But it has little to do with spending 10 million a year on a closer worth 4 million. It has much more to do with not getting any arms for the 6th, 7th and 8th after moving the solid guys you had there to the rotation and then later to the closer spot because of an injury. Real diehards know this. Cherrington's job is to go out and find 3-4 arms to fill these roles. Instead we have Vicente Padilla and Scott Atchison (though kudos to Theo for Morales, who appears to be on his game this year and probably should be the closer).

And the Red Sox have had an imbecile for a manager for the past 15 years. One of those imbeciles won two world series.

twballgame9 {l Wrote}:I hear a lot of complaints about the Red Sox. "Not being one of the retarded teams that spends a ton of money on a closer because you catch them after their prime instead of before" is not one of them. Indeed, the biggest complaint has been "Daniel Bard should be the closer not in the rotation," which ended the other day, when he showed why he is in the rotation.

The Red Sox bullpen stinks. But it has little to do with spending 10 million a year on a closer worth 4 million. It has much more to do with not getting any arms for the 6th, 7th and 8th after moving the solid guys you had there to the rotation and then later to the closer spot because of an injury. Real diehards know this. Cherrington's job is to go out and find 3-4 arms to fill these roles. Instead we have Vicente Padilla and Scott Atchison (though kudos to Theo for Morales, who appears to be on his game this year and probably should be the closer).

And the Red Sox have had an imbecile for a manager for the past 15 years. One of those imbeciles won two world series.

I'm a diehard too, and probably like you, I spent my allowance on baseball cards and asked for tickets for Christmas. I likewise go to a bunch of games a year (thank goodness the silly sellout streak is finally in jeopardy). That doesn't mean I drink the kool-aid of their invincibility always. You're clearly a rah-rah.

If they solidify their bullpen over the next couple years and win another championship, the mess of the last year will be forgiven. In the meantime, if the PR backlash continues to increase, then Bobby V (who is a symbol of both the idiocy and the relative cheapness) will be one of the first to have his head served on a platter to Red Sox fans. However, Bobby V notwithstanding, I still see a pattern of PR incompetence that goes back to Theo's first resignation in late 2005. I worry that it will be their undoing.

For the record, since I've been talking only of perception, I personally see Bobby V as neither a bad nor a great manager. It worries me that his teams have made the playoffs only once during his long managing career. In general, I'd rather my skipper keep a low profile, but I'm willing to live with him if he consistently makes sound baseball decisions. I also think that the impact of the skipper is hugely overrated, so that is where I'm coming from.

My favorite argument is that the Red Sox aren't spending money on the team because FSG owns Liverpool. And I agree with much of what Teddy is saying, not all, but a lot, especially the Bard issue. If you don't realize an average starter is worth about 900x any reliever not named Mariano Rivera, something is wrong.

flyingelvii {l Wrote}:My favorite argument is that the Red Sox aren't spending money on the team because FSG owns Liverpool. And I agree with much of what Teddy is saying, not all, but a lot, especially the Bard issue. If you don't realize an average starter is worth about 900x any reliever not named Mariano Rivera, something is wrong.

I obviously don't agree with this either, but if a significant portion of the fanbase starts to think this, it needs to be dealt with.

bignick33 {l Wrote}:

flyingelvii {l Wrote}:My favorite argument is that the Red Sox aren't spending money on the team because FSG owns Liverpool. And I agree with much of what Teddy is saying, not all, but a lot, especially the Bard issue. If you don't realize an average starter is worth about 900x any reliever not named Mariano Rivera, something is wrong.

I obviously don't agree with this either, but if a significant portion of the fanbase starts to think this, it needs to be dealt with.

They'll address it. By raising ticket prices again. And it won't make a damn bit of difference.

Melancon sent down to Pawtucket.

Francona will be in the building Friday.

Lucchino gives Valentine the Vince McMahon treatment in front of the sellout crowd and re-hires Tito on the spot. Valentine is shown diving into the back of Hal Steinbrenner's waiting limo on the jumbletron.

DavidGordonsFoot {l Wrote}:Francona will be in the building Friday.

Lucchino gives Valentine the Vince McMahon treatment in front of the sellout crowd and re-hires Tito on the spot. Valentine is shown diving into the back of Hal Steinbrenner's waiting limo on the jumbletron.

You missed the part where John Henry comes out from behind Valentine as Valentine's shaking hands with Lucky and hits him over the head with a steel chair while Orsillo yells, "NO! NO! THIS WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN!"

flyingelvii {l Wrote}:

DavidGordonsFoot {l Wrote}:Francona will be in the building Friday.

Lucchino gives Valentine the Vince McMahon treatment in front of the sellout crowd and re-hires Tito on the spot. Valentine is shown diving into the back of Hal Steinbrenner's waiting limo on the jumbletron.

You missed the part where John Henry comes out from behind Valentine as Valentine's shaking hands with Lucky and hits him over the head with a steel chair while Orsillo yells, "NO! NO! THIS WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN!"

Don't forget that John Henry will come out unexpectedly, set to his new John Williams-composed theme song. Orsillo will be shocked and yell "That's John Henry's music!"

P and S: Manny Ramirez will be the special guest referee when Valentine and Francona fight for the Red Sox Head Coach title at Extreme Rules in Rosemont, IL (only available on pay-per-view).

Nomar interferes at the end to give Bobby V the victory. Still hasn't forgiven Tito for 2004.

Beckett, Lester, Buchholz and Lackey announce they are leaving to start their own team, the NWO ('Nother Wing Order).

This thread finally got good...

Shouldn't these wrestling fantasies go in the "Gay Baseball Porn" thread?