Everything about Soccer Sucks

[twballgame9]

I think the "Bradley and Arena ignored Hispanic guys" thing is kinda overblown. Torres, Orozco-Fiscal, and Castillo all got their first caps under Bradley, and Corona was just 21 when Klinsmann took over the team (and hadn't yet committed to playing for the US over Mexico and El Salvador). It's also worth noting that none of those guys are anything special--Castillo is probably the only one with anything more than a remote chance to make the World Cup team, and that's more due to lack of depth at his positions than anything else--and Orozco is downright awful. Jurgen's influence has definitely been more pronounced with the German-American contingent but again Jones got his first cap under Bradley (probably would have been in South Africa if he hadn't gotten hurt) and other than Johnson none of the other guys have really established themselves in the team.

This is dumb. Gomez and Torres both have s legit shot to be in Brazil. And should have been on recent Bradley teams.

[twballgame9]

Fwiw the defense sucks. And Torres is the best player on the field other than wondo

[MF73-Eleazar]

If there's anything to take away from this game is that Holden if he gets back to 90% of his form, is that he is one of the 4 central midfielders. I like Torres, but Holden can cover the whole field and contribute defensively and offensively. Plus Holden I think is the better option than The Fucking Hippie in midfield.

[PhillyandBCEagles]

I think the "Bradley and Arena ignored Hispanic guys" thing is kinda overblown. Torres, Orozco-Fiscal, and Castillo all got their first caps under Bradley, and Corona was just 21 when Klinsmann took over the team (and hadn't yet committed to playing for the US over Mexico and El Salvador). It's also worth noting that none of those guys are anything special--Castillo is probably the only one with anything more than a remote chance to make the World Cup team, and that's more due to lack of depth at his positions than anything else--and Orozco is downright awful. Jurgen's influence has definitely been more pronounced with the German-American contingent but again Jones got his first cap under Bradley (probably would have been in South Africa if he hadn't gotten hurt) and other than Johnson none of the other guys have really established themselves in the team.

This is dumb. Gomez and Torres both have s legit shot to be in Brazil. And should have been on recent Bradley teams.

Both were on the 2010 World Cup team, and Gomez isn't really what we're talking about here--he spent a year or two with Cruz Azul's youth team but came back to the US when he was 20 and had been playing in MLS for years before he got a US callup and then went on to the MFL. The question is more about guys who were born in the US to Mexican parents and got picked up by MFL clubs' youth systems in their mid-teens. If you want to talk anyone with Mexican heritage then you can start bringing guys like Bocanegra and Bornstein (half-Mexican on his mother's side) into the discussion.

And Torres is a long shot to make the team, he's got a number of guys ahead of him.....and he's fucking terrible.

look at the youth team rosters from the u17 and u20 teams, al. HEAVILY mexican-american.

Yeah, but those guys are a lot younger. I'm not sure how much direct involvement Bradley and Arena had in the youth setups, Klinsmann is more involved but I don't get the impression that even he is hand-picking players for the U-17 team. I think a big part of it is that the internet is making it a lot easier to track down the fact that some kid in Pumas' youth team was born in LA and lived there until he was 14.

[PhillyandBCEagles]

If there's anything to take away from this game is that Holden if he gets back to 90% of his form, is that he is one of the 4 central midfielders. I like Torres, but Holden can cover the whole field and contribute defensively and offensively. Plus Holden I think is the better option than The Fucking Hippie in midfield.

Torres makes me want to throw my remote through the TV. Guy obviously has some skills but slows up the attack way too much, especially when he's getting knocked off the ball by a stiff breeze. Corona didn't exactly do anything to improve my opinion of the (non-Beasley/Gomez) MFL contributions either.

Wondo earned himself some minutes in future games that are going to come at the expense of guys who might actually be able to contribute against World Cup-level competition, but still a nice hat trick. Almost feel like you have to get Holden on the field somewhere, but where? I'm a big fan of the Bradley/Cameron CM pairing, so maybe at LM...but again, if Shea can pick things up at Stoke this season he's gonna make it tough to keep him off the field.

[twballgame9]

Torres, by far the best player on the field tonight. Not really arguable.

[twballgame9]

P and S Philly, Brek Shea is fucking terrible.

[PhillyandBCEagles]

Torres, by far the best player on the field tonight. Not really arguable.

You sure you don't have Torres and Holden mixed up?

[MF73-Eleazar]

I like Holden, but I'm not sure he'll displace anyone in a midfield consisting of:

--Donovan--Jones--Bradley--Zusi

OR

--FJohnson--Jones--Bradley--Zusi--

Both Holden and Cameron look to be the backups for Jones and Bradley, since the current starters are known to be card magnets. I like Torres, but he may be the odd man out here. The Fucking Hippie can still go fuck himself.

[PhillyandBCEagles]

I don't see Zusi starting in Brazil barring injuries.

[2001Eagle]

I don't see Zusi starting in Brazil barring injuries.

his service has been the best of any winger we have.

[PhillyandBCEagles]

I don't see Zusi starting in Brazil barring injuries.

his service has been the best of any winger we have.

Against CONCACAF teams.

[HustlinOwl]

All of this in-depth analysis is yet more proof why soccer sucks it.

[eagle216]

Holden if healthy, and if in form, is a step up from the bulk of the roster. In no particular order, Holden, Deuce, LD, and Bradley are the 4 best field players on the team. Everyone else is a step down so to speak, and rather interchangable to a large degree. After you slot in the aforesaid 4, add Howard, find two CBs, and an in form Altidore, that leaves only 3 spots, two of which are LB/RB. Of course, Holden may not be healthy or in form, and Altidore may decide to suck again. All in all, though, our biggest problem will be our CBs getting carved up by quality opponents at the WC. As usual, the draw will be everything.

BTW, any serious discussion about the US National Team must include a link to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Di8QT98Zk

[twballgame9]

Torres, by far the best player on the field tonight. Not really arguable.

You sure you don't have Torres and Holden mixed up?

Not even remotely. Sure you didn't miss the first 60 minutes of the game?

[hansen]

BTW, any serious discussion about the US National Team must include a link to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Di8QT98Zk

My mind is officially blown.

[twballgame9]

A Torres cross set up the first goal and he was involved in one of the other of Wondo's goals (I think the third was on a dirty hippy pass) and he narrowly missed a wide open goal on a sweet attempt at a volley. He was very strong on the wing and seemed like he was in the right spot all of the time.

Holden is a better athlete and player, and he is certainly making the WC roster if he is healthy (unlikely - he's the Fred Taylor of US soccer). But he wasn't even on the field until after halftime, when the game was effectively over. Although you could argue it was over when they announced the teams. I wasn't arguing Torres over Holden, just that he would make the team over some of the other names I have seen. And it is clear Klinsman likes him much more than Bradley did; it''s just not clear yet how much more.

EDIT - the other Wondo goal was assisted by Parkhurst.

[eagle216]

A Torres cross set up the first goal and he was involved in one of the other of Wondo's goals (I think the third was on a dirty hippy pass) and he narrowly missed a wide open goal on a sweet attempt at a volley. He was very strong on the wing and seemed like he was in the right spot all of the time.

Holden is a better athlete and player, and he is certainly making the WC roster if he is healthy (unlikely - he's the Fred Taylor of US soccer). But he wasn't even on the field until after halftime, when the game was effectively over. Although you could argue it was over when they announced the teams. I wasn't arguing Torres over Holden, just that he would make the team over some of the other names I have seen. And it is clear Klinsman likes him much more than Bradley did; it''s just not clear yet how much more.

EDIT - the other Wondo goal was assisted by Parkhurst.

Discussing who did what against FUCKIN BELIZE is stupid. Take Wondo - he looks like Van fuckin Persie against weaker competition, but is just not good enough against better teams (think Mexico and above). Klinsmann knows this. Belize only fielded 2 professional players for christ sake. Soccer vs Belize and soccer vs say, Belgium (who ripped us apart in a friendly) are basically two different sports.

[MF73-Eleazar]

Torres probably has a better chance at getting minutes with the first team if he lines up at LM rather than centrally. Those spots are locked and there is a glut of talent there. Less of a glut at LM, would only have to displace Fabian Johnson or Donovan. Dunno if he's better at LM or centrally, don't see him play often for his club down south of the border.

Al, you possibly have a point about Zusi and him doing well against teams in our confed, but then Wondo has only looked good against minnow teams in our confed. I think Zusi will get plenty of mins just from the familiarity he has with the other starters.

Saturday, Klinsmann will change the lineup since the game won't be on turf:

-----Gomez--------------Donovan-----
-Torres---------Holden--------Corona-
-----------------Hippie-----------------
-Beasley-Gooch-Goodson-Parkhurst-
---------------Rimando-----------------

My preference would be Mix and Holden centrally.

[twballgame9]

A Torres cross set up the first goal and he was involved in one of the other of Wondo's goals (I think the third was on a dirty hippy pass) and he narrowly missed a wide open goal on a sweet attempt at a volley. He was very strong on the wing and seemed like he was in the right spot all of the time.

Holden is a better athlete and player, and he is certainly making the WC roster if he is healthy (unlikely - he's the Fred Taylor of US soccer). But he wasn't even on the field until after halftime, when the game was effectively over. Although you could argue it was over when they announced the teams. I wasn't arguing Torres over Holden, just that he would make the team over some of the other names I have seen. And it is clear Klinsman likes him much more than Bradley did; it''s just not clear yet how much more.

EDIT - the other Wondo goal was assisted by Parkhurst.

Discussing who did what against FUCKIN BELIZE is stupid. Take Wondo - he looks like Van fuckin Persie against weaker competition, but is just not good enough against better teams (think Mexico and above). Klinsmann knows this. Belize only fielded 2 professional players for christ sake. Soccer vs Belize and soccer vs say, Belgium (who ripped us apart in a friendly) are basically two different sports.

And one of those pros was the dude that Torres smoked on the dribble to set up the first goal. Regardless, the comment we are discussing was that Torres was the best player on the field last night, a comment I made before garbage/feel good record book time. I can't comment on how well Torres played last night against, oh say, the German B team that the US basically smoked a month ago in a friendly, since they weren't playing them last night.

Besides, if you don't think Klinsman is using these games to evaluate the last 5-6 guys on the roster, you are nuts. That is precisely why the roster looks this way. That's not to say that anyone on Team USA is going to take Wondo because he had a hat trick, but they are certainly evaluating who looks good. Holden, for example, used last night proved he is back in form until he injures himself again.

[eagle216]

A Torres cross set up the first goal and he was involved in one of the other of Wondo's goals (I think the third was on a dirty hippy pass) and he narrowly missed a wide open goal on a sweet attempt at a volley. He was very strong on the wing and seemed like he was in the right spot all of the time.

Holden is a better athlete and player, and he is certainly making the WC roster if he is healthy (unlikely - he's the Fred Taylor of US soccer). But he wasn't even on the field until after halftime, when the game was effectively over. Although you could argue it was over when they announced the teams. I wasn't arguing Torres over Holden, just that he would make the team over some of the other names I have seen. And it is clear Klinsman likes him much more than Bradley did; it''s just not clear yet how much more.

EDIT - the other Wondo goal was assisted by Parkhurst.

Discussing who did what against FUCKIN BELIZE is stupid. Take Wondo - he looks like Van fuckin Persie against weaker competition, but is just not good enough against better teams (think Mexico and above). Klinsmann knows this. Belize only fielded 2 professional players for christ sake. Soccer vs Belize and soccer vs say, Belgium (who ripped us apart in a friendly) are basically two different sports.

And one of those pros was the dude that Torres smoked on the dribble to set up the first goal. Regardless, the comment we are discussing was that Torres was the best player on the field last night, a comment I made before garbage/feel good record book time. I can't comment on how well Torres played last night against, oh say, the German B team that the US basically smoked a month ago in a friendly, since they weren't playing them last night.

Besides, if you don't think Klinsman is using these games to evaluate the last 5-6 guys on the roster, you are nuts. That is precisely why the roster looks this way. That's not to say that anyone on Team USA is going to take Wondo because he had a hat trick, but they are certainly evaluating who looks good. Holden, for example, used last night proved he is back in form until he injures himself again.

More like the German C/D team, but whatever. Our team is very good. Much better than most people think. Which is exactly why a game against Belize is essentially meaningless from an evaluative point of view. Klinsmann needs to evaluate the back end of what will be the WC roster, but performances against Belize will not be a part of it. He act like it will be in public, but that would only be politically correct speak. He can't publicly say the truth ("this game is a waste of time, but its part of the Gold Cup, so it must be played. the rules say I put 11 on the field, so I put 11 on the field'). Torres may or may not figure prominently in Klinsmanns plans, but it will not be based on what he did last night, or the fact that he smoked some 4th rate pro on a dribble.

[twballgame9]

A Torres cross set up the first goal and he was involved in one of the other of Wondo's goals (I think the third was on a dirty hippy pass) and he narrowly missed a wide open goal on a sweet attempt at a volley. He was very strong on the wing and seemed like he was in the right spot all of the time.

Holden is a better athlete and player, and he is certainly making the WC roster if he is healthy (unlikely - he's the Fred Taylor of US soccer). But he wasn't even on the field until after halftime, when the game was effectively over. Although you could argue it was over when they announced the teams. I wasn't arguing Torres over Holden, just that he would make the team over some of the other names I have seen. And it is clear Klinsman likes him much more than Bradley did; it''s just not clear yet how much more.

EDIT - the other Wondo goal was assisted by Parkhurst.

Discussing who did what against FUCKIN BELIZE is stupid. Take Wondo - he looks like Van fuckin Persie against weaker competition, but is just not good enough against better teams (think Mexico and above). Klinsmann knows this. Belize only fielded 2 professional players for christ sake. Soccer vs Belize and soccer vs say, Belgium (who ripped us apart in a friendly) are basically two different sports.

And one of those pros was the dude that Torres smoked on the dribble to set up the first goal. Regardless, the comment we are discussing was that Torres was the best player on the field last night, a comment I made before garbage/feel good record book time. I can't comment on how well Torres played last night against, oh say, the German B team that the US basically smoked a month ago in a friendly, since they weren't playing them last night.

Besides, if you don't think Klinsman is using these games to evaluate the last 5-6 guys on the roster, you are nuts. That is precisely why the roster looks this way. That's not to say that anyone on Team USA is going to take Wondo because he had a hat trick, but they are certainly evaluating who looks good. Holden, for example, used last night proved he is back in form until he injures himself again.

More like the German C/D team, but whatever. Our team is very good. Much better than most people think. Which is exactly why a game against Belize is essentially meaningless from an evaluative point of view. Klinsmann needs to evaluate the back end of what will be the WC roster, but performances against Belize will not be a part of it. He act like it will be in public, but that would only be politically correct speak. He can't publicly say the truth ("this game is a waste of time, but its part of the Gold Cup, so it must be played. the rules say I put 11 on the field, so I put 11 on the field'). Torres may or may not figure prominently in Klinsmanns plans, but it will not be based on what he did last night, or the fact that he smoked some 4th rate pro on a dribble.

It's like judging a recruiting video. The kids all around the kid playing may be smaller, slower and crappier, but you can evaluate the way the kid plays regardless. Holden, for example, opened some eyes with the way he played regardless of whom he was playing against. If a coach can't evaluate a player's skill level regardless of the then competition, then he probably shouldn't be the coach or manager or whatever the hell they call it in soccer.

[eagle216]

A Torres cross set up the first goal and he was involved in one of the other of Wondo's goals (I think the third was on a dirty hippy pass) and he narrowly missed a wide open goal on a sweet attempt at a volley. He was very strong on the wing and seemed like he was in the right spot all of the time.

Holden is a better athlete and player, and he is certainly making the WC roster if he is healthy (unlikely - he's the Fred Taylor of US soccer). But he wasn't even on the field until after halftime, when the game was effectively over. Although you could argue it was over when they announced the teams. I wasn't arguing Torres over Holden, just that he would make the team over some of the other names I have seen. And it is clear Klinsman likes him much more than Bradley did; it''s just not clear yet how much more.

EDIT - the other Wondo goal was assisted by Parkhurst.

Discussing who did what against FUCKIN BELIZE is stupid. Take Wondo - he looks like Van fuckin Persie against weaker competition, but is just not good enough against better teams (think Mexico and above). Klinsmann knows this. Belize only fielded 2 professional players for christ sake. Soccer vs Belize and soccer vs say, Belgium (who ripped us apart in a friendly) are basically two different sports.

And one of those pros was the dude that Torres smoked on the dribble to set up the first goal. Regardless, the comment we are discussing was that Torres was the best player on the field last night, a comment I made before garbage/feel good record book time. I can't comment on how well Torres played last night against, oh say, the German B team that the US basically smoked a month ago in a friendly, since they weren't playing them last night.

Besides, if you don't think Klinsman is using these games to evaluate the last 5-6 guys on the roster, you are nuts. That is precisely why the roster looks this way. That's not to say that anyone on Team USA is going to take Wondo because he had a hat trick, but they are certainly evaluating who looks good. Holden, for example, used last night proved he is back in form until he injures himself again.

More like the German C/D team, but whatever. Our team is very good. Much better than most people think. Which is exactly why a game against Belize is essentially meaningless from an evaluative point of view. Klinsmann needs to evaluate the back end of what will be the WC roster, but performances against Belize will not be a part of it. He act like it will be in public, but that would only be politically correct speak. He can't publicly say the truth ("this game is a waste of time, but its part of the Gold Cup, so it must be played. the rules say I put 11 on the field, so I put 11 on the field'). Torres may or may not figure prominently in Klinsmanns plans, but it will not be based on what he did last night, or the fact that he smoked some 4th rate pro on a dribble.

It's like judging a recruiting video. The kids all around the kid playing may be smaller, slower and crappier, but you can evaluate the way the kid plays regardless. Holden, for example, opened some eyes with the way he played regardless of whom he was playing against. If a coach can't evaluate a player's skill level regardless of the then competition, then he probably shouldn't be the coach or manager or whatever the hell they call it in soccer.

We are basically in agreement, we just disagree on scale. Your point would be correct in evaluating whether or not a player even gets to attend a National Team camp (in otherwords, be a part of the larger 40 man roster or whatever may be their equivalent). When I say the Belize game is useless from an evaluative point, I mean in determining who starts in the WC, and decisions like that.

In otherwords, any coach can use the Belize game to destinguish between Holden and some semi-pro player. But the Belize game can't be used to distinguish between Holden/Bradley and Torres/Zusi,ect. You know the first group is of higher quality because they shine against better competition. The latter group largely does not.

As for Holden - he opened no one's eyes last night - at least regarding people who know what is going on. Holden is expected to play like that vs Belize. He can play with the best players in the world. Klinnsman learned nothing about him, other than maybe that he leg didn't explode. If he wants to learn about Holden, he will watch tape of him playing in Europe this year, and/or in training against American peers, and/or against Mexico.

[twballgame9]

A Torres cross set up the first goal and he was involved in one of the other of Wondo's goals (I think the third was on a dirty hippy pass) and he narrowly missed a wide open goal on a sweet attempt at a volley. He was very strong on the wing and seemed like he was in the right spot all of the time.

Holden is a better athlete and player, and he is certainly making the WC roster if he is healthy (unlikely - he's the Fred Taylor of US soccer). But he wasn't even on the field until after halftime, when the game was effectively over. Although you could argue it was over when they announced the teams. I wasn't arguing Torres over Holden, just that he would make the team over some of the other names I have seen. And it is clear Klinsman likes him much more than Bradley did; it''s just not clear yet how much more.

EDIT - the other Wondo goal was assisted by Parkhurst.

Discussing who did what against FUCKIN BELIZE is stupid. Take Wondo - he looks like Van fuckin Persie against weaker competition, but is just not good enough against better teams (think Mexico and above). Klinsmann knows this. Belize only fielded 2 professional players for christ sake. Soccer vs Belize and soccer vs say, Belgium (who ripped us apart in a friendly) are basically two different sports.

And one of those pros was the dude that Torres smoked on the dribble to set up the first goal. Regardless, the comment we are discussing was that Torres was the best player on the field last night, a comment I made before garbage/feel good record book time. I can't comment on how well Torres played last night against, oh say, the German B team that the US basically smoked a month ago in a friendly, since they weren't playing them last night.

Besides, if you don't think Klinsman is using these games to evaluate the last 5-6 guys on the roster, you are nuts. That is precisely why the roster looks this way. That's not to say that anyone on Team USA is going to take Wondo because he had a hat trick, but they are certainly evaluating who looks good. Holden, for example, used last night proved he is back in form until he injures himself again.

More like the German C/D team, but whatever. Our team is very good. Much better than most people think. Which is exactly why a game against Belize is essentially meaningless from an evaluative point of view. Klinsmann needs to evaluate the back end of what will be the WC roster, but performances against Belize will not be a part of it. He act like it will be in public, but that would only be politically correct speak. He can't publicly say the truth ("this game is a waste of time, but its part of the Gold Cup, so it must be played. the rules say I put 11 on the field, so I put 11 on the field'). Torres may or may not figure prominently in Klinsmanns plans, but it will not be based on what he did last night, or the fact that he smoked some 4th rate pro on a dribble.

It's like judging a recruiting video. The kids all around the kid playing may be smaller, slower and crappier, but you can evaluate the way the kid plays regardless. Holden, for example, opened some eyes with the way he played regardless of whom he was playing against. If a coach can't evaluate a player's skill level regardless of the then competition, then he probably shouldn't be the coach or manager or whatever the hell they call it in soccer.

We are basically in agreement, we just disagree on scale. Your point would be correct in evaluating whether or not a player even gets to attend a National Team camp (in otherwords, be a part of the larger 40 man roster or whatever may be their equivalent). When I say the Belize game is useless from an evaluative point, I mean in determining who starts in the WC, and decisions like that.

In otherwords, any coach can use the Belize game to destinguish between Holden and some semi-pro player. But the Belize game can't be used to distinguish between Holden/Bradley and Torres/Zusi,ect. You know the first group is of higher quality because they shine against better competition. The latter group largely does not.

As for Holden - he opened no one's eyes last night - at least regarding people who know what is going on. Holden is expected to play like that vs Belize. He can play with the best players in the world. Klinnsman learned nothing about him, other than maybe that he leg didn't explode. If he wants to learn about Holden, he will watch tape of him playing in Europe this year, and/or in training against American peers, and/or against Mexico.

It's not about whether people knew Holden had that talent. It's about whether people knew that Holden was able to play to that talent again. Last night answered that question, and would have done so if they were playing Spain, and it has nothing to do with the fact that he scored a goal on a crappy team. Fine with watching his tape in Europe, but there is nothing like watching him live in actual game action.

I am of the opinion that in almost any sport, you can see talent regardless of the opponent. When Pedro Martinez strikes out 10 AA hitters in a rehab start, you know the guy has Hall of Fame stuff. When Steven Ridley rushes for 180 yards against Louisiana Tech, you can still tell that he is a future NFL RB.

[eagle216]

A Torres cross set up the first goal and he was involved in one of the other of Wondo's goals (I think the third was on a dirty hippy pass) and he narrowly missed a wide open goal on a sweet attempt at a volley. He was very strong on the wing and seemed like he was in the right spot all of the time.

Holden is a better athlete and player, and he is certainly making the WC roster if he is healthy (unlikely - he's the Fred Taylor of US soccer). But he wasn't even on the field until after halftime, when the game was effectively over. Although you could argue it was over when they announced the teams. I wasn't arguing Torres over Holden, just that he would make the team over some of the other names I have seen. And it is clear Klinsman likes him much more than Bradley did; it''s just not clear yet how much more.

EDIT - the other Wondo goal was assisted by Parkhurst.

Discussing who did what against FUCKIN BELIZE is stupid. Take Wondo - he looks like Van fuckin Persie against weaker competition, but is just not good enough against better teams (think Mexico and above). Klinsmann knows this. Belize only fielded 2 professional players for christ sake. Soccer vs Belize and soccer vs say, Belgium (who ripped us apart in a friendly) are basically two different sports.

And one of those pros was the dude that Torres smoked on the dribble to set up the first goal. Regardless, the comment we are discussing was that Torres was the best player on the field last night, a comment I made before garbage/feel good record book time. I can't comment on how well Torres played last night against, oh say, the German B team that the US basically smoked a month ago in a friendly, since they weren't playing them last night.

Besides, if you don't think Klinsman is using these games to evaluate the last 5-6 guys on the roster, you are nuts. That is precisely why the roster looks this way. That's not to say that anyone on Team USA is going to take Wondo because he had a hat trick, but they are certainly evaluating who looks good. Holden, for example, used last night proved he is back in form until he injures himself again.

More like the German C/D team, but whatever. Our team is very good. Much better than most people think. Which is exactly why a game against Belize is essentially meaningless from an evaluative point of view. Klinsmann needs to evaluate the back end of what will be the WC roster, but performances against Belize will not be a part of it. He act like it will be in public, but that would only be politically correct speak. He can't publicly say the truth ("this game is a waste of time, but its part of the Gold Cup, so it must be played. the rules say I put 11 on the field, so I put 11 on the field'). Torres may or may not figure prominently in Klinsmanns plans, but it will not be based on what he did last night, or the fact that he smoked some 4th rate pro on a dribble.

It's like judging a recruiting video. The kids all around the kid playing may be smaller, slower and crappier, but you can evaluate the way the kid plays regardless. Holden, for example, opened some eyes with the way he played regardless of whom he was playing against. If a coach can't evaluate a player's skill level regardless of the then competition, then he probably shouldn't be the coach or manager or whatever the hell they call it in soccer.

We are basically in agreement, we just disagree on scale. Your point would be correct in evaluating whether or not a player even gets to attend a National Team camp (in otherwords, be a part of the larger 40 man roster or whatever may be their equivalent). When I say the Belize game is useless from an evaluative point, I mean in determining who starts in the WC, and decisions like that.

In otherwords, any coach can use the Belize game to destinguish between Holden and some semi-pro player. But the Belize game can't be used to distinguish between Holden/Bradley and Torres/Zusi,ect. You know the first group is of higher quality because they shine against better competition. The latter group largely does not.

As for Holden - he opened no one's eyes last night - at least regarding people who know what is going on. Holden is expected to play like that vs Belize. He can play with the best players in the world. Klinnsman learned nothing about him, other than maybe that he leg didn't explode. If he wants to learn about Holden, he will watch tape of him playing in Europe this year, and/or in training against American peers, and/or against Mexico.

It's not about whether people knew Holden had that talent. It's about whether people knew that Holden was able to play to that talent again. Last night answered that question, and would have done so if they were playing Spain, and it has nothing to do with the fact that he scored a goal on a crappy team. Fine with watching his tape in Europe, but there is nothing like watching him live in actual game action.

I am of the opinion that in almost any sport, you can see talent regardless of the opponent. When Pedro Martinez strikes out 10 AA hitters in a rehab start, you know the guy has Hall of Fame stuff. When Steven Ridley rushes for 180 yards against Louisiana Tech, you can still tell that he is a future NFL RB.

The Pedro example is poor because you can see his hall of fame stuff even if he were pitching to a catcher in the bullpen. Different sport/ different situation. The football example is also poor, but less so, since there you can still see speed and quickness, even against a poor opponent. In soccer, its all about the first touch. How well is your first touch under pressure - a pressure Belize can not provide. How accurate is your passing? Do you have the correct spin and weight on the ball? Unlike baseball and football, these things can not be judged unless you are playing against the appropriate competition. Soccer is more like basketball and lacrosse in this respect.

You can't equate Belize and Spain in this argument. Who knows how Holden would have played against Spain last night? The fact that he played well against Belize is not a predicting indicator of his prospective performance against Spain. A game against Arsenal would be, even if its on tape.

[twballgame9]

I could have just as easily come up with a basketball example. A good ball handler looks like a good ball handler regardless of the defense. I could have said Kyrie Irving looked like an NBA PG even though he was only playing Boston College.

I don't agree that soccer is any different. Guys that are crisp with the first touch and in passing against England aren't going to all of a sudden get lazy because Belize can't pressure them as much. Their passes and first touches will still look good. Will it be easier for the guys that don't have those skills to make and receive passes because there is less pressure, sure. But will it look the same as the good players? Absolutely not.

[eagle216]

I could have just as easily come up with a basketball example. A good ball handler looks like a good ball handler regardless of the defense. I could have said Kyrie Irving looked like an NBA PG even though he was only playing Boston College.

I don't agree that soccer is any different. Guys that are crisp with the first touch and in passing against England aren't going to all of a sudden get lazy because Belize can't pressure them as much. Their passes and first touches will still look good. Will it be easier for the guys that don't have those skills to make and receive passes because there is less pressure, sure. But will it look the same as the good players? Absolutely not.

We have now drilled down to the core of our disagreement, which means we have argued productively and honestly. The simple answer to the question that closes you post, is "yes", when we are talking about Belize as an opponent, and differentiating a Holden with a, say, Zusi.

Your BC example is poor in that the gap between USMNT and Belize is larger than that between an NBA team and an ACC team.

The better example would be could you tell the difference between Kyrie Irving and a good Euroleague PG if both were playing against a high level men's amatuer team in the US. I submit that you could not.

And its not that Holden/Bradley et al get lazy vs Belize. Its that the next tier looks better, and as good as the first tier. Remember that the gap between Holden and Torres is much much smaller than the gap between Torres and the Belize player du jour.

Another way of making my point is to state that the gap between the players at Klinsmann's disposal is so small in comparison to the weekness of the Belize players that it results in a match vs Belize being meaningless from an evaluative point of view. There is simply no way to dispute this in my opinion.

[twballgame9]

I could have just as easily come up with a basketball example. A good ball handler looks like a good ball handler regardless of the defense. I could have said Kyrie Irving looked like an NBA PG even though he was only playing Boston College.

I don't agree that soccer is any different. Guys that are crisp with the first touch and in passing against England aren't going to all of a sudden get lazy because Belize can't pressure them as much. Their passes and first touches will still look good. Will it be easier for the guys that don't have those skills to make and receive passes because there is less pressure, sure. But will it look the same as the good players? Absolutely not.

We have now drilled down to the core of our disagreement, which means we have argued productively and honestly. The simple answer to the question that closes you post, is "yes", when we are talking about Belize as an opponent, and differentiating a Holden with a, say, Zusi.

Your BC example is poor in that the gap between USMNT and Belize is larger than that between an NBA team and an ACC team.

The better example would be could you tell the difference between Kyrie Irving and a good Euroleague PG if both were playing against a high level men's amatuer team in the US. I submit that you could not.

And its not that Holden/Bradley et al get lazy vs Belize. Its that the next tier looks better, and as good as the first tier. Remember that the gap between Holden and Torres is much much smaller than the gap between Torres and the Belize player du jour.

If I had never seen the USMNT play, and you had asked me to name the top 3 players on the team that played last night, I would have answered Holden, Donovan and Torres and it wouldn't have been close. It is just obvious, especially with the first two, even against Belize. Their play looks substantially different. Torres, maybe not as much from a pure talent perspective, but he did stand out in the way that he played.

A discerning eye doesn't think Wondo "looked better" last night. He looked liked the player that he is. Belize just stinks. That's why I haven't mentioned him, despite his hat trick.

I guess I don't equate "getting away with mediocre talent and moves because the other team stinks" with "looking better, as good as the first tier because the other team stinks."

P&S, the BC thing was a joke.

[PhillyandBCEagles]

Torres wasn't as frustrating as he often is, but he was just OK. Diskerud had a nice game as well.

Regarding Shea, he's not there yet....what I'm saying is that IF he breaks into the starting lineup at Stoke this year and plays well, he's a force to be reckoned with. Shea is the living answer to all those "what if the top NFL/NBA athletes played soccer?" hypothetical questions, he has legit NFL WR size/speed.

[HustlinOwl]

CEASE!!